Woodbutcher
Super member
They'd probably collect the broken ones to recycle as the heads were the most valuable bits ?
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Battle of Agincourt, some interesting stuff.
- Thread starter nav2022
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Enfield2band
Member Extraordinaire
I didn't think of that. They would have had arrowmakers and fletchers with them. If they carried a stock of shafts it would have been easy to replenish the stocks with the recovered points.
That blows that theory out of the window.
It still amazes me that the only example of longbows we have from that era was the 130 or so found on the mary rose shipwreck.
Without these, not a single one would be known to us. Imagine Japan loosing all their samurai swords. It's just amazing to think about. It was only these bows that told us the average draw weight for these weapons was 200lbs. The average man now would struggle to pull a 60lbs bow and Joe Gibbs (featured earlier in the thread) is famous for being able to pull a 150lbs bow. He's rare now but going back to the 1400's we would have an army full of people like him.
Stuff was recycled over and over, finding enough iron ore to make a kilo of the stuff could take a month. I highly doubt they would let it go to waste so I don't know what would be left to find, add in that after 500 years that iron arrowhead could well be gone completely.
Northern France has also seen a lot of military action, if you found a burial pit you would struggle pinpoint exactly which battle it was from anyway.
Without these, not a single one would be known to us. Imagine Japan loosing all their samurai swords. It's just amazing to think about. It was only these bows that told us the average draw weight for these weapons was 200lbs. The average man now would struggle to pull a 60lbs bow and Joe Gibbs (featured earlier in the thread) is famous for being able to pull a 150lbs bow. He's rare now but going back to the 1400's we would have an army full of people like him.
Stuff was recycled over and over, finding enough iron ore to make a kilo of the stuff could take a month. I highly doubt they would let it go to waste so I don't know what would be left to find, add in that after 500 years that iron arrowhead could well be gone completely.
Northern France has also seen a lot of military action, if you found a burial pit you would struggle pinpoint exactly which battle it was from anyway.
Woodbutcher
Super member
Joe training with a 200lb bow and then 200lb plus a 10lb band on top ...
And testing various Mary Rose replica bows.
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
Right were moving. I've traced the steps. The new road through the middle of Agincourt and Tramecourt didn't exist, this was the road originally.
"It was announced to the king by scouts and patrols on horseback that an
enemy force many thousands strong was on the other side of the river, about a
league away on our right.
Therefore we crossed the river as fast as we could, and when we reached the
top of the hill on the other side, we saw emerging from further up the valley the
grim ranks of Frenchmen, about half a mile from us. Being of an incomparable
number in relation to us, they took up position in columns, ranks and squadrons
somewhat more than half a mile opposite us, filling a very broad field, as if they were
an innumerable multitude of locusts, and occupying the moderately sized valley that
lay between them and us"
It's important to get this right. The top of the hill is Maisoncelle at 127 meters. Henry got to this position. One league puts the French exactly here. Henry is at 127 meters, the French are at 120 meters with the valley between them at 99 meters. We've found the valley.
Half a mile between them is exactly correct. So far so good.
"When for a while the opposing ranks had seen and considered our measure
and smallness of number, they brought themselves to a field that lay beyond a
wood, which was near on the left between us and them, where our route towards
Calais was. Our king, supposing that the men would thus either encircle the wood, so
that they could come upon him via that route, or else would go round through the
more distant woods that neighboured it and surround us on every side, immediately
removed his columns and positioned them in constant opposition to them.
When eventually after some delay we had almost reached sunset, the
Frenchmen perhaps saw that war was not going to be waged – as this was not
appropriate around nightfall – and entered the hamlets and shrubbery nearby,
intending to rest until morning."
We have the wood folks, its coming together.
"When it at last reached nightfall, and darkness had overcome us and them, and we
were still standing on the field and listening to the enemy in their quarters, as each
of them shouted, as is their custom, for their comrade, servant and friend, who had
perhaps become separated from them in so great a crowd, and our men had
similarly begun to do the same, the king ordered silence throughout the whole army,
on the penalty of losing horse and harness, in the case of a nobleman who
committed the offence, and of a right ear in the case of an archer and anyone of
lower rank, without any hope of obtaining forgiveness for anyone who should
presume to violate the king’s edict. And immediately he retreated in silence to the
hamlet nearby, where we had some houses, although very few in number, along
with gardens and groves for our respite, and there was rain in abundance for almost
the whole night"
They went back to Mainsoncelle. That works out brilliant.
Morning of the battle
"And on the following day, namely Friday on the Feast of St Crispin and Crispinian, 25
October, as dawn rose, the French positioned themselves in ranks, squadrons and
wedges, and took their place in front of us on the field named Agincourt, across
which was our route to Calais, and they were of a most terrifying number. Cohorts of
cavalry stood in many hundreds on both sides of their vanguard in order to burst
through our battle line and our force of archers. And that vanguard of soldiers on
foot consisted of all the choicest noblemen: it was a forest of lances and a grave
multitude of gleaming shields and cavalry at their sides, and was approximately
thirty times greater than ours. But their rearguard and wings, squadrons and wedges
were all on horseback, as if prepared for flight rather than to remain in place, and in
respect to ours they were of an incomparable number"
Ladies and gents, at no point does the witness say the English marched onto a battlefield. He says the French were already in position at dawn. Henry had to fight from where he camped. If he camped at Maisoncelle then this is solved.
"It was announced to the king by scouts and patrols on horseback that an
enemy force many thousands strong was on the other side of the river, about a
league away on our right.
Therefore we crossed the river as fast as we could, and when we reached the
top of the hill on the other side, we saw emerging from further up the valley the
grim ranks of Frenchmen, about half a mile from us. Being of an incomparable
number in relation to us, they took up position in columns, ranks and squadrons
somewhat more than half a mile opposite us, filling a very broad field, as if they were
an innumerable multitude of locusts, and occupying the moderately sized valley that
lay between them and us"
It's important to get this right. The top of the hill is Maisoncelle at 127 meters. Henry got to this position. One league puts the French exactly here. Henry is at 127 meters, the French are at 120 meters with the valley between them at 99 meters. We've found the valley.
Half a mile between them is exactly correct. So far so good.
"When for a while the opposing ranks had seen and considered our measure
and smallness of number, they brought themselves to a field that lay beyond a
wood, which was near on the left between us and them, where our route towards
Calais was. Our king, supposing that the men would thus either encircle the wood, so
that they could come upon him via that route, or else would go round through the
more distant woods that neighboured it and surround us on every side, immediately
removed his columns and positioned them in constant opposition to them.
When eventually after some delay we had almost reached sunset, the
Frenchmen perhaps saw that war was not going to be waged – as this was not
appropriate around nightfall – and entered the hamlets and shrubbery nearby,
intending to rest until morning."
We have the wood folks, its coming together.
"When it at last reached nightfall, and darkness had overcome us and them, and we
were still standing on the field and listening to the enemy in their quarters, as each
of them shouted, as is their custom, for their comrade, servant and friend, who had
perhaps become separated from them in so great a crowd, and our men had
similarly begun to do the same, the king ordered silence throughout the whole army,
on the penalty of losing horse and harness, in the case of a nobleman who
committed the offence, and of a right ear in the case of an archer and anyone of
lower rank, without any hope of obtaining forgiveness for anyone who should
presume to violate the king’s edict. And immediately he retreated in silence to the
hamlet nearby, where we had some houses, although very few in number, along
with gardens and groves for our respite, and there was rain in abundance for almost
the whole night"
They went back to Mainsoncelle. That works out brilliant.
Morning of the battle
"And on the following day, namely Friday on the Feast of St Crispin and Crispinian, 25
October, as dawn rose, the French positioned themselves in ranks, squadrons and
wedges, and took their place in front of us on the field named Agincourt, across
which was our route to Calais, and they were of a most terrifying number. Cohorts of
cavalry stood in many hundreds on both sides of their vanguard in order to burst
through our battle line and our force of archers. And that vanguard of soldiers on
foot consisted of all the choicest noblemen: it was a forest of lances and a grave
multitude of gleaming shields and cavalry at their sides, and was approximately
thirty times greater than ours. But their rearguard and wings, squadrons and wedges
were all on horseback, as if prepared for flight rather than to remain in place, and in
respect to ours they were of an incomparable number"
Ladies and gents, at no point does the witness say the English marched onto a battlefield. He says the French were already in position at dawn. Henry had to fight from where he camped. If he camped at Maisoncelle then this is solved.
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Woodbutcher
Super member
Sorry but I find the "original road" part a bit of a straw clutch , I can't imagine a road where you put it , between settlements rather than connecting them , very unusual for even antiquated roads to be thus abandoned surely ?
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
The witness was spot on.
The 1825 map puts the road elsewhere. Sorry.
The Witness was right, its one league from the river to the French position which is 3 miles, just measured it.
Maisoncelle was much smaller back then, a tiny hamlet.
The 1825 map puts the road elsewhere. Sorry.
The Witness was right, its one league from the river to the French position which is 3 miles, just measured it.
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nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
This is where the confusion lies. It was different back then. The road between Agincourt and Trameworth in my opinion is some kind of later bypass to avoid both towns of Maisoncelle and Agincourt. Maybe put in during the 17th or 18th century.
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
We now have a basis from which to work out a battlefield. We know Henry is camped at Maisoncelle and can't move because the French are on them at dawn.
The witness statement was correct in all aspects. This has been a huge tool in this.
The 1825 map has the English camped just west of Maisoncelle, the old road is correct.
We can do this.
The witness statement was correct in all aspects. This has been a huge tool in this.
The 1825 map has the English camped just west of Maisoncelle, the old road is correct.
We can do this.
brouwpa
Super member
Can you plot the wrong battle field on the map for reference please.
I have walked Agincourt twice and the field is too big to have been the correct site. No significant dip to encourage a particularly boggy section and the topography would be better suited to 2 equally sized opponents.
I have walked Agincourt twice and the field is too big to have been the correct site. No significant dip to encourage a particularly boggy section and the topography would be better suited to 2 equally sized opponents.
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
"When they had spent much of the day in delays of this kind, and each army
had stood still and not moved a step against each other, the king saw that the
multitude were deferring the attack which he had expected from them, and thus
stood across our route, either to break up our deployment or to instil our hearts with
fear of their numbers, or as if to obstruct our movement and await more allies who
chanced to be on their way, or at least, knowing the shortage of our victuals"
The French were stood across their route to Calais, or were they blocking the route onto the battlefield? that's important.
The night before, the French were also blocking their route to Calais so we would have to assume that road is the road through Agincourt and the last known French position the day before. This puts the French just south of Agincourt lining up again the English.
Henry however retreated from his position and camped west of Maisoncelle, a different position from the night before.
The 1825 map has him below and if the French face up against him then we'll have something like this.
In accounts it was written that Henry was defending a 600 yard wide funnel to keep his archers in range.
From Pond Roger to the farm on the south is exactly 600 yards. That's interesting.
had stood still and not moved a step against each other, the king saw that the
multitude were deferring the attack which he had expected from them, and thus
stood across our route, either to break up our deployment or to instil our hearts with
fear of their numbers, or as if to obstruct our movement and await more allies who
chanced to be on their way, or at least, knowing the shortage of our victuals"
The French were stood across their route to Calais, or were they blocking the route onto the battlefield? that's important.
The night before, the French were also blocking their route to Calais so we would have to assume that road is the road through Agincourt and the last known French position the day before. This puts the French just south of Agincourt lining up again the English.
Henry however retreated from his position and camped west of Maisoncelle, a different position from the night before.
The 1825 map has him below and if the French face up against him then we'll have something like this.
In accounts it was written that Henry was defending a 600 yard wide funnel to keep his archers in range.
From Pond Roger to the farm on the south is exactly 600 yards. That's interesting.
Woodbutcher
Super member
Found this nice resource of old French maps ... 
https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Fr...ate_from=0&date_to=1765&scale_from=&scale_to=
A couple pertaining to the area showing old woodlands and river valleys.
And this one.
https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Fr...ate_from=0&date_to=1765&scale_from=&scale_to=
A couple pertaining to the area showing old woodlands and river valleys.
And this one.
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
It's ironic that the official battle marker is in the location of the French baggage train.
The French rearguard would also be in that location.
They have the general area but wrong battle direction.
"It was announced to the king by scouts and patrols on horseback that an
enemy force many thousands strong was on the other side of the river, about a
league away on our right."
It is exactly one league from the river at Blangy to the position of the French south of Agincourt.
That's scary accuracy from the witness. I'll not just only bet my house on this, I'll bet my wife.
The French rearguard would also be in that location.
They have the general area but wrong battle direction.
"It was announced to the king by scouts and patrols on horseback that an
enemy force many thousands strong was on the other side of the river, about a
league away on our right."
It is exactly one league from the river at Blangy to the position of the French south of Agincourt.
That's scary accuracy from the witness. I'll not just only bet my house on this, I'll bet my wife.
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
I think some will find this interesting. Two fields with trauma from battle. Towton on the left and Agincourt right.
Look at Towton. The main melee circled in the middle and the escape route of the Lancastrians going left into the cock beck and North to Towton where most were captured. On the left coming in you can still see the documented guerilla attack from the scrubland to the Yorkist left flank. Fantastic to be able to see this still.
Agincourt on the right. Do we see the French legging it from two melee's in similar fashion? Interesting isn't it?
Look at Towton. The main melee circled in the middle and the escape route of the Lancastrians going left into the cock beck and North to Towton where most were captured. On the left coming in you can still see the documented guerilla attack from the scrubland to the Yorkist left flank. Fantastic to be able to see this still.
Agincourt on the right. Do we see the French legging it from two melee's in similar fashion? Interesting isn't it?
I am not taking anything away from him, a fabulous archer. However he's now seen as special in 2024.Joe training with a 200lb bow and then 200lb plus a 10lb band on top ...
And testing various Mary Rose replica bows.
In England, 1400's this freak ability to pull 200lbs was average. The average Mary Rose bow was 200lbs draw weight, they wouldn't waste resources making bows no one could use.
It's a testament to the training our medieval armies had.
Woodbutcher
Super member
Just a thought based on the wooded areas on the older maps , pity that Google Streetview didn't tackle the tracks in the area because the terrain looks right ... ?
valevelo
Member Extraordinaire
How cool would it be if Fond Roger "Rogers Bottom" to the west of Maisoncelle was named after Sir Roger Vaughan of Bredwardine who saved Henry V
nav2022
Member Extraordinaire
I think if we are to find the battlefield successfully we need to know the last two positions of both armies from witness statements. We also need trauma in a field to show it was there.
I think we have the known positions. I think we have trauma too.