Storing Gun At Home With Licence?

Ranks said:
Good morning, so when applying for your FAC are you allowed to say that you will be storing them at your club and not at your home ?
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The question is why would you want to, unless you do not have the ability to store at home?

Also be prepared for the question from the police as to why, under these circumstances, you even need an FAC as you could just shoot a club gun. Playing devil’s advocate.
 
Captain_Slackbladder said:
The question is why would you want to, unless you do not have the ability to store at home?

Also be prepared for the question from the police as to why, under these circumstances, you even need an FAC as you could just shoot a club gun. Playing devil’s advocate.
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That’s ture
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Ranks said:
Good morning, so when applying for your FAC are you allowed to say that you will be storing them at your club and not at your home ?
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I had this discussion when applying for my FAC some years ago.

The answer is almost certainly ‘no’.

First because of the good reason point mentioned by others - if you are only ever to shoot at that club, use a club rifle. Possible to get round - for example, if you want to shoot a calibre not owned by the club - but tricky and I can’t see your licensing authority (police) being keen on it.

Second, because in approving such arrangements, the police are causing / permitting a situation in which the likelihood of you breaching the conditions of your certificate are increased. Consider this: you collect your rifle from your club. You have lawful authority to possess. It’s yours. The club can’t stop you. You drive it to an RFD for fettling / scope mounting / something. En route, your car breaks down / you get the opening times wrong / traffic is terrible / a hundred other possibilities occur. The RFD is closed. Your club is now closed. You’ve got a rifle and potentially ammunition with you and with no secure place to store it. And the situation that has arisen is entirely predictable, and preventable by ensuring that all FAC holders have their own secure storage.

Can you store your rifles at your club? Yes, other members have explained how. Can you only have provision to store your rifles at your club? Probably not, for the reasons above.

Finally, depending on your club facilities, cleaning and maintenance will be a pain if you have to do everything there.

Hope this helps.

AG
 
Amateur Gardener said:
Consider this: you collect your rifle from your club. You have lawful authority to possess. It’s yours. The club can’t stop you. You drive it to an RFD for fettling / scope mounting / something. En route, your car breaks down / you get the opening times wrong / traffic is terrible / a hundred other possibilities occur. The RFD is closed. Your club is now closed. You’ve got a rifle and potentially ammunition with you and with no secure place to store it. And the situation that has arisen is entirely predictable, and preventable by ensuring that all FAC holders have their own secure storage.
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The law covers this. If your firearm is out for some reason, then you must take reasonable precautions to prevent unauthorised access.

If you go away for a few days and spend one or more days shooting, you'll take your firearms with you. You are not in breach of the conditions if you take reasonable precautions, etc. Chapter 18.56 cover such eventualities and gives some ideas on security.
 
Maybe those provisions apply to the above circumstances, maybe they don’t.

The concept of ‘reasonableness’ is (obviously) well-used in the law, and has the advantage that it is somewhat fluid and can be reinterpreted over time according to society’s changing views. Good for the legislators as it avoids rewriting statutes every few years. Good for the lawyers as it provides lots to argue about in court and hence plenty of chargeable hours. Less good for the individual, who cannot be certain until the moment of decision what any given prosecutor, magistrate, judge or jury will consider reasonable or unreasonable in a given set of circumstances.

Would the man on the Clapham omnibus consider it reasonable only ever to stay in accommodation with secure cabinets whenever one went away shooting? Probably not. But would that same person consider it reasonable that a firearms owner had not arranged suitably secure storage at a place they frequent very often such as their home given that the scenario I outlined is wholly foreseeable? In this day and age when large parts of the public are not especially positive about civilian firearms ownership and plenty of the judiciary and CPS aren’t necessarily great fans either, I’m not so sure.

Furthermore, even assuming that the police decide not to follow the line of condition breach, if the firearm is still stolen then they still have the risk and hassle of another firearm on the criminal market even if the certificate holder’s actions are deemed reasonable (at whatever stage of the process).

From the licensing authority point of view, there’s no downside to requiring secure storage at the certificate holder’s home. If it’s never used and the firearm remains permanently in the club armoury, even better. They aren’t the ones paying for the cabinet.
 
Just genuinely curious here. Do police in the UK perform house visits to check how you store your weapons? They do that here (mandatory by law) where they check storage, serial numbers and ammo. That won't work of course if you store your weapons at the club. Further more, you make the club responsible for your weapons if you store them there.
 
jev said:
Just genuinely curious here. Do police in the UK perform house visits to check how you store your weapons? They do that here (mandatory by law) where they check storage, serial numbers and ammo. That won't work of course if you store your weapons at the club. Further more, you make the club responsible for your weapons if you store them there.
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Yes, both before first issue of your FAC and also at renewal where your new certificate is "usually" hand delivered, as it was in my case and also the visit was un-announced ;).

The Police are permitted to visit at any reasonable time to do interim checks and you can choose to give access at first attempt but, if you deny them access they will simply obtain a warrant and return later, likely mob handed!
 
Ranks said:
Good morning, so when applying for your FAC are you allowed to say that you will be storing them at your club and not at your home ?
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Yes, I did just that when I first got my fac. I latter applied for home storage.
 
Amateur Gardener said:
I had this discussion when applying for my FAC some years ago.

The answer is almost certainly ‘no’.

First because of the good reason point mentioned by others - if you are only ever to shoot at that club, use a club rifle. Possible to get round - for example, if you want to shoot a calibre not owned by the club - but tricky and I can’t see your licensing authority (police) being keen on it.

Second, because in approving such arrangements, the police are causing / permitting a situation in which the likelihood of you breaching the conditions of your certificate are increased. Consider this: you collect your rifle from your club. You have lawful authority to possess. It’s yours. The club can’t stop you. You drive it to an RFD for fettling / scope mounting / something. En route, your car breaks down / you get the opening times wrong / traffic is terrible / a hundred other possibilities occur. The RFD is closed. Your club is now closed. You’ve got a rifle and potentially ammunition with you and with no secure place to store it. And the situation that has arisen is entirely predictable, and preventable by ensuring that all FAC holders have their own secure storage.

Can you store your rifles at your club? Yes, other members have explained how. Can you only have provision to store your rifles at your club? Probably not, for the reasons above.

Finally, depending on your club facilities, cleaning and maintenance will be a pain if you have to do everything there.

Hope this helps.

AG
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The police do allow you to store at a club armoury, I know as I did when I first acquired my fac.
Another little know fact, and I know because I did it fairly regularly, is if you are a member of a HO approved club.and you can prove you are travelling to shoot a Competition at an other HO club/ range you can transport a club gun and ammunition without having a personal FAC. An example of this is when we would compete at Bisley for a full week, you didnt take your guns home each night. They were kept in your accommodation. I'm not sure if this was calibre specific though, as we were a small bore club affiliated to the NSRA.
 
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Anchutz said:
The police do allow you to store at a club armoury, I know as I did when I first acquired my fac.
Another little know fact, and I know because I did it fairly regularly, is if you are a member of a HO approved club.and you can prove you are travelling to shoot a Competition at an other HO club/ range you can transport a club gun and ammunition without having a personal FAC. An example of this is when we would compete at Bisley for a full week, you didnt take your guns home each night. They were kept in your accommodation. I'm not sure if this was calibre specific though, as we were a small bore club affiliated to the NSRA.
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"17.3 Members of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club approved
by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers may, without holding firearm
certificates, have in their possession firearms and ammunition when engaged as
members of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting (section 15(1) of the
Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act). It
should be noted that section 15(1) does not stipulate that the firearms must be club
firearms. A member of an approved club may temporarily possess a firearm solely
in connection with target shooting on the club’s range, or other ranges which it may
use."

Above from the Home Office website. I would very strongly suggest though that if this is excercised, it is with a signed letter of approval from the club secretary (along with their mobile number), copy of the FAC, plus the above text and web page.

Edited to include a copy of the club FAC as well, forgot to mention that 🙄
 
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Shultz & Larsen said:
The Police are permitted to visit at any reasonable time to do interim checks and you can choose to give access at first attempt but, if you deny them access they will simply obtain a warrant and return later, likely mob handed!
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As @Shultz & Larsen says they can make unannounced visits but legal advice has it do not let them in as it will be inconvenient, ask them politely to return later. If they had an issue they'd have a warrant and wouldn't need to be so accommodating.
 
Redboat01 said:

"17.3 Members of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club approved
by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers may, without holding firearm
certificates, have in their possession firearms and ammunition when engaged as
members of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting (section 15(1) of the
Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act). It
should be noted that section 15(1) does not stipulate that the firearms must be club
firearms. A member of an approved club may temporarily possess a firearm solely
in connection with target shooting on the club’s range, or other ranges which it may
use."

Above from the Home Office website. I would very strongly suggest though that if this is excercised, it is with a signed letter of approval from the club secretary (along with their mobile number), plus the above text and web page.
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The club FAC is in the name of the club and underneath it has a care-of, or contact name (the Holder). The club has the FAC, not the individual and as such any full club member in effect also has that FAC.
It is a little used law but can be very helpful for away comps. We use it quite a bit if the named club fac holder isn't going.
 
the white death said:
Better to know the fac providers stance
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To which bit?

The FLDs/FEOs have to follow the law as much as we do.
I have found many FEOs I've come across are quite ignorant of the finer points of the Laws as they apply to firearms, but are open to discussions and enlightenment when presented with the references.
 
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