Legality of T4E guns such as HDR 68, HDB 68, Glock 17 Gen5 .43

[GreenGrowler]

Found this on you tube,

Now you are going to start a discussion, lol.
That's about the most sensible video discussing self defence I've seen.

Gock .43 is a great tool - very well built, great fun. Trigger pull a bit wierd as it pulls the barrel towards the mag at the same time so feels a bit long & heavy. Blowback a little short but overall a cracking plinker, more suited to destroying cans in the garden than on a range I think

Couldn't agree more, the T4E Glock is a great back yard plinker, as is the 50cal revolver, though the Glock is certainly not the cheapest. It's a very different experience to a pellet or BB gun, not as accurate, but destroys tin cans in a shot or two, and guaranteed to put a smile on your face. Best choice on the range, personal opinion, is the steel BB, if you local range allows them.

 

[Littlejon365]

Back garden plinker for me as the range will not allow it from what I understand. Haven’t asked in a while but I’d assume it’s still frowned upon.
Not getting into the legal side as for me, If It’s sold over here with the rubber balls legally from the shop then The Umarex HDX 68 Pump Action Shotgun I have is good fun and legal.
You’re not going to set target records with it but I shoot groups just under 4inch at about 10+ yards. It puts a smile on anyone’s face who shoots it.

Good luck

 

[r4nd0m]

I give my last comment on this all paintball markers are legal in the UK if they adhere to the joules as I wrote earlier AND when using paintballs (frangible) or if I recall correctly first strikes but not with solid rubber, steel you name it balls.

There are a few reball centers which use something similar to the Nerf Rival range, a soft, reusable foam ball.
From my understanding however, this is borderline but solid, rubber, steel is definitely off the table.

The T4Es available in the UK as such can only be legally fired with frangible paintballs or chalk balls if procured under a paintball defense.

Try the old bill if you think its worth the hassle and potentially losing access to guns altogether over it.

For me this clearly derives from its purchase (under defense) and associated intended purpose

 

[Hiram]

I've long been intrigued by the Glock 17 in 43 but I see they're $325 on Amazon. That's only $73 less than what an actual Glock 17 9mm would cost me. I'm not sure if I'm THAT intrigued.

 

[jonjuice]

is there anywhere left selling the 11j version?.....asking for a friend obvs...lol

 

[Hiram]

I give my last comment on this all paintball markers are legal in the UK if they adhere to the joules as I wrote earlier AND when using paintballs (frangible) or if I recall correctly first strikes but not with solid rubber, steel you name it balls.

There are a few reball centers which use something similar to the Nerf Rival range, a soft, reusable foam ball.
From my understanding however, this is borderline but solid, rubber, steel is definitely off the table.

The T4Es available in the UK as such can only be legally fired with frangible paintballs or chalk balls if procured under a paintball defense.

Try the old bill if you think its worth the hassle and potentially losing access to guns altogether over it.

For me this clearly derives from its purchase (under defense) and associated intended purpose

Sounds very confusing. If the gun is below 6 FPE, in the case of a pistol, then why wouldn't it just be considered an air pistol if you're shooting non-frangible ammo?

 

[r4nd0m]

Sounds very confusing. If the gun is below 6 FPE, in the case of a pistol, then why wouldn't it just be considered an air pistol if you're shooting non-frangible ammo?

Dont ask me ask the law makers I think we can all agree that firearms law isn’t logical in a lot of ways

I sense its a similar reason why an air-rifle can become a firearm (FAC) but can never change back.

The question is never can you but does it still conform with the applicable law.

 

[Hiram]

Dont ask me ask the law makers I think we can all agree that firearms law isn’t logical in a lot of ways

I sense its a similar reason why an air-rifle can become a firearm (FAC) but can never change back.

So is that actually codified or is it a case of interpretation? I.e. it was marketed and bought as a paintball marker therefore it can't be an air pistol.

 

[r4nd0m]

So is that actually codified or is it a case of interpretation? I.e. it was marketed and bought as a paintball marker therefore it can't be an air pistol.

That is my understanding. A nail gun doesnt become an air pistol either.

 

[nikvanorton]

The laws regarding guns in the UK are really very messy. Let's take a few identical looking BLACK Glocks:

Air pistol Glock - Have to be 18 and then I have to have it sent to a Registered Firearms Dealer to collect. Looks same as airsoft, but not a realistic imitation firearm. Limit 6ftlbs.

Airsoft Glock - Need a defence regarding the VCR act then posted straight to me. This is a realistic imitation firearm. Limits vary according to location and semi/full auto but generally 1J - 2.5J.

Paintball Glock - Now need to be a member of UKPSF (a fiver) then posted straight to me. Looks same as airsoft, but not a realistic imitation firearm. Limit 6ftlbs

Blank fiiring Glock - Need a defence regarding the VCR Act in the form of re-enactment, theatre etc., then posted straight to me. This is a realistic imitation firearm. Doesn't fire a projectile but goes bang.

Deactivated real Glock - Just have to be 18 then posted straight to me. My details will be sent to the home office as the owner. The most realistic of all, but of course, it's not a realistic imitation firearm because it's real. Doesn't fire a projectile and doesn't go bang.

This is why these arguments discussions end up nowhere. Most of the above contradicts itself and as a result, with the paintball Glock (which probably wasn't even thought of when the laws were written), there's no real answer, just different interpretations.

I still think mine are right though

 

[Joey]

So is that actually codified or is it a case of interpretation? I.e. it was marketed and bought as a paintball marker therefore it can't be an air pistol.

Does my S510T become a paintball marker if I shoot tiny paintballs from it?

None of it makes sense and nobody knows. Everyone interprets the legislation differently.

Remember alot of these T4E 'paintball' markers aren't sold as paintball markers by airgun shops, only paintball shops...they're sold as air weapons in RFDs. No mention of paintballs in descriptions.

 

[Iain K D]

To understand how this confusion arose (I think), it's important to bear in mind that the definition of a firearm used to be "a lethal barrelled weapon capable of discharging any shot or missile". The significant word in there was 'lethal', which came to be understood to mean causing a wound that penetrates the skin. To do this takes a solid projectile, but only a low amount of energy, eventually recognised at 1 foot.pound or slightly less.

On this basis, a typical air pistol firing a lead pellet is a firearm, and then we say "what type of firearm - an air weapon".

An airsoft pistol fires a solid plastic projectile, but with insufficient energy to penetrate, so is not a firearm.

A paintball pistol fires a projectile with comparable energy to an air pistol, but the projectile itself breaks up rather than penetrate, so it is not a firearm.

This explains the Home Office guidance that paintball guns are generally not firearms. (But what the guidance doesn't address is just how powerful they can be, if the air weapon limits don't apply, although there is I believe some precedent or industry guidance setting a limit of around 9 ft.lb / 11 joules.)

However, airsoft and paintball guns, by not being firearms, are open to being classed as imitation firearms or realistic imitation firearms by virtue of their appearance. I'm not sure there's anything to support paintball guns 'being classed as paintball markers' and exempting them from this possibility.

Being a RIF is important, because their importation and sale has been a offence since 2007 subject to certain exemptions. The relevant one here is (to quote the HO guidance)

2.41 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/2606) provides two further defences which apply to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act. The first is a defence for making a realistic imitation firearm available for ‘permitted activities’, defined as “the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation” and primarily intended to cover those participating in airsoft skirmishing. It is a requirement under the regulations that third party liability insurance is held in connection with such activities.

I think it is fair to say that while the airsoft industry did take this legislation on board, the paintball industry did not, until recently when they have introduced a very half-hearted membership scheme. By the time they were doing that, however, the definition of what constitutes a firearm had changed (look at the CPS guidance). Lethality was no longer the issue it was, merely the muzzle energy of the projectile. Paintball guns should (it seems) be regarded as firearms/air weapons irrespective of the projectile they fire. On that basis paintball guns are still not 'classed as paintball markers' and nor are they RIFs but are treated and sold just like any other air weapon - by RFDs, not via mail order, complying with air weapon power limits, etc.

Iain

 

[Joey]

The laws regarding guns in the UK are really very messy. Let's take a few identical looking BLACK Glocks:

Air pistol Glock - Have to be 18 and then I have to have it sent to a Registered Firearms Dealer to collect. Looks same as airsoft, but not a realistic imitation firearm. Limit 6ftlbs.

Airsoft Glock - Need a defence regarding the VCR act then posted straight to me. This is a realistic imitation firearm. Limits vary according to location and semi/full auto but generally 1J - 2.5J.

Paintball Glock - Now need to be a member of UKPSF (a fiver) then posted straight to me. Looks same as airsoft, but not a realistic imitation firearm. Limit 6ftlbs

Blank fiiring Glock - Need a defence regarding the VCR Act in the form of re-enactment, theatre etc., then posted straight to me. This is a realistic imitation firearm. Doesn't fire a projectile but goes bang.

Deactivated real Glock - Just have to be 18 then posted straight to me. My details will be sent to the home office as the owner. The most realistic of all, but of course, it's not a realistic imitation firearm because it's real. Doesn't fire a projectile and doesn't go bang.

This is why these arguments discussions end up nowhere. Most of the above contradicts itself and as a result, with the paintball Glock (which probably wasn't even thought of when the laws were written), there's no real answer, just different interpretations.

I still think mine are right though

And another twist...

I've got a blank firing Glock. If you're happy to have it 50% bright colours you don't need any defence. And PELLPAX sent it me via Royal Mail, along with the 9mm ammo.

 

[Joey]

To understand how this confusion arose (I think), it's important to bear in mind that the definition of a firearm used to be "a lethal barrelled weapon capable of discharging any shot or missile". The significant word in there was 'lethal', which came to be understood to mean causing a wound that penetrates the skin. To do this takes a solid projectile, but only a low amount of energy, eventually recognised at 1 foot.pound or slightly less.

On this basis, a typical air pistol firing a lead pellet is a firearm, and then we say "what type of firearm - an air weapon".

An airsoft pistol fires a solid plastic projectile, but with insufficient energy to penetrate, so is not a firearm.

A paintball pistol fires a projectile with comparable energy to an air pistol, but the projectile itself breaks up rather than penetrate, so it is not a firearm.

This explains the Home Office guidance that paintball guns are generally not firearms. (But what the guidance doesn't address is just how powerful they can be, if the air weapon limits don't apply, although there is I believe some precedent or industry guidance setting a limit of around 9 ft.lb / 11 joules.)

However, airsoft and paintball guns, by not being firearms, are open to being classed as imitation firearms or realistic imitation firearms by virtue of their appearance. I'm not sure there's anything to support paintball guns 'being classed as paintball markers' and exempting them from this possibility.

Being a RIF is important, because their importation and sale has been a offence since 2007 subject to certain exemptions. The relevant one here is (to quote the HO guidance)

2.41 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/2606) provides two further defences which apply to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act. The first is a defence for making a realistic imitation firearm available for ‘permitted activities’, defined as “the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation” and primarily intended to cover those participating in airsoft skirmishing. It is a requirement under the regulations that third party liability insurance is held in connection with such activities.

I think it is fair to say that while the airsoft industry did take this legislation on board, the paintball industry did not, until recently when they have introduced a very half-hearted membership scheme. By the time they were doing that, however, the definition of what constitutes a firearm had changed (look at the CPS guidance). Lethality was no longer the issue it was, merely the muzzle energy of the projectile. Paintball guns should (it seems) be regarded as firearms/air weapons irrespective of the projectile they fire. On that basis paintball guns are still not 'classed as paintball markers' and nor are they RIFs but are treated and sold just like any other air weapon - by RFDs, not via mail order, complying with air weapon power limits, etc.

Iain

This makes the most sense out of anything I've read so far.

And it's been a complete minefield.

 

[nikvanorton]

And another twist...

I've got a blank firing Glock. If you're happy to have it 50% bright colours you don't need any defence. And PELLPAX sent it me via Royal Mail, along with the 9mm ammo.

Note that I said 'Identical looking BLACK Glocks'.

 

[Joey]

Note that I said 'Identical looking BLACK Glocks'.

Oh yes buddy I know you did. I was just highlighting that when it's blue it can be sent via royal mail and not need a defense like Airsofts vcra.

 

[GreenGrowler]

To understand how this confusion arose (I think), it's important to bear in mind that the definition of a firearm used to be "a lethal barrelled weapon capable of discharging any shot or missile". The significant word in there was 'lethal', which came to be understood to mean causing a wound that penetrates the skin. To do this takes a solid projectile, but only a low amount of energy, eventually recognised at 1 foot.pound or slightly less.

On this basis, a typical air pistol firing a lead pellet is a firearm, and then we say "what type of firearm - an air weapon".

An airsoft pistol fires a solid plastic projectile, but with insufficient energy to penetrate, so is not a firearm.

A paintball pistol fires a projectile with comparable energy to an air pistol, but the projectile itself breaks up rather than penetrate, so it is not a firearm.

This explains the Home Office guidance that paintball guns are generally not firearms. (But what the guidance doesn't address is just how powerful they can be, if the air weapon limits don't apply, although there is I believe some precedent or industry guidance setting a limit of around 9 ft.lb / 11 joules.)

However, airsoft and paintball guns, by not being firearms, are open to being classed as imitation firearms or realistic imitation firearms by virtue of their appearance. I'm not sure there's anything to support paintball guns 'being classed as paintball markers' and exempting them from this possibility.

Being a RIF is important, because their importation and sale has been a offence since 2007 subject to certain exemptions. The relevant one here is (to quote the HO guidance)

2.41 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/2606) provides two further defences which apply to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act. The first is a defence for making a realistic imitation firearm available for ‘permitted activities’, defined as “the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation” and primarily intended to cover those participating in airsoft skirmishing. It is a requirement under the regulations that third party liability insurance is held in connection with such activities.

I think it is fair to say that while the airsoft industry did take this legislation on board, the paintball industry did not, until recently when they have introduced a very half-hearted membership scheme. By the time they were doing that, however, the definition of what constitutes a firearm had changed (look at the CPS guidance). Lethality was no longer the issue it was, merely the muzzle energy of the projectile. Paintball guns should (it seems) be regarded as firearms/air weapons irrespective of the projectile they fire. On that basis paintball guns are still not 'classed as paintball markers' and nor are they RIFs but are treated and sold just like any other air weapon - by RFDs, not via mail order, complying with air weapon power limits, etc.

Iain

I think that is probably the clearest explanation I've ever seen.

 

[r4nd0m]

To understand how this confusion arose (I think), it's important to bear in mind that the definition of a firearm used to be "a lethal barrelled weapon capable of discharging any shot or missile". The significant word in there was 'lethal', which came to be understood to mean causing a wound that penetrates the skin. To do this takes a solid projectile, but only a low amount of energy, eventually recognised at 1 foot.pound or slightly less.

On this basis, a typical air pistol firing a lead pellet is a firearm, and then we say "what type of firearm - an air weapon".

An airsoft pistol fires a solid plastic projectile, but with insufficient energy to penetrate, so is not a firearm.

A paintball pistol fires a projectile with comparable energy to an air pistol, but the projectile itself breaks up rather than penetrate, so it is not a firearm.

This explains the Home Office guidance that paintball guns are generally not firearms. (But what the guidance doesn't address is just how powerful they can be, if the air weapon limits don't apply, although there is I believe some precedent or industry guidance setting a limit of around 9 ft.lb / 11 joules.)

However, airsoft and paintball guns, by not being firearms, are open to being classed as imitation firearms or realistic imitation firearms by virtue of their appearance. I'm not sure there's anything to support paintball guns 'being classed as paintball markers' and exempting them from this possibility.

Being a RIF is important, because their importation and sale has been a offence since 2007 subject to certain exemptions. The relevant one here is (to quote the HO guidance)

2.41 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/2606) provides two further defences which apply to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act. The first is a defence for making a realistic imitation firearm available for ‘permitted activities’, defined as “the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation” and primarily intended to cover those participating in airsoft skirmishing. It is a requirement under the regulations that third party liability insurance is held in connection with such activities.

I think it is fair to say that while the airsoft industry did take this legislation on board, the paintball industry did not, until recently when they have introduced a very half-hearted membership scheme. By the time they were doing that, however, the definition of what constitutes a firearm had changed (look at the CPS guidance). Lethality was no longer the issue it was, merely the muzzle energy of the projectile. Paintball guns should (it seems) be regarded as firearms/air weapons irrespective of the projectile they fire. On that basis paintball guns are still not 'classed as paintball markers' and nor are they RIFs but are treated and sold just like any other air weapon - by RFDs, not via mail order, complying with air weapon power limits, etc.

Iain

After a bit more research during the night and this morning I stand corrected and came to a similar conclusion as @Iain K D its a selling restrictions loophole

 

[DOBBO47]

Interesting read through, has any one on here chrono tested the Umerex .43 5j pistols with paintballs?

 

[Wayno-81]

Interesting read through, has any one on here chrono tested the Umerex .43 5j pistols with paintballs? (or any other ammo type).

I did my hdr50 and it was doing 5.5ft/lb