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common sense from a clown

In that vein, what happens to all plant life starved of C02, due to use of battery powered vehicles...oh , right, it'll die back...there goes all Earth's oxygen production - now what ?
I'll sit that one out in my Tesla Oxygen chamber (TM) then.
Seriously people, think. Massive changes need making. Now. It's gonna hurt in the short term. So did the introduction of the seed drill and the Spinning Jenney. Gotta think long term here. Unless you've got shares in BsoddingP and then you're a vested interest, which never works for the greater good. So crack on with your Red Barchetta and repent at your leisure.
 
I'll sit that one out in my Tesla Oxygen chamber (TM) then.
Seriously people, think. Massive changes need making. Now. It's gonna hurt in the short term. So did the introduction of the seed drill and the Spinning Jenney. Gotta think long term here. Unless you've got shares in BsoddingP and then you're a vested interest, which never works for the greater good. So crack on with your Red Barchetta and repent at your leisure.
Smart $£ is just utilize clean burning Natural Gas, which to a large extent is just burnt off in oilfield flares, save a bunch of refining cost, better for the planet than heavy metal batteries, won't overtax the grid, cheap...
 
It does amuse me when people ascribe incredible, complex, "conspiracies against the people" ideas when it comes things like EV's and "keeping hydrogen secret until the EV market is saturated"! The idea that all those companies, from all those countries could agree to sit on something when there would be a commercial advantage to being first to market with something new is hilarious. That is not to say that car companies can't agree and won't lobby governments - they will! But the only thing they can agree on is "we don't need any changes" - emissions legislation: "we don't need it", lead free petrol: "we don't need it". CO2 limits: we don't need it". The only variation, another favourite, is "it can't be done". They are businesses, they don't want to spend money or engineering resource on anything that the customer doesn't want to pay for. And customers are not reasonable beings! They do (in the main!) want cars to be cleaner but they don't think the cost of cars should increase because of the kit (and the work) required.

As far as "they diddled us on diesel is concerned" - nonsense! The GOVERNMENT encouraged the sale of diesels because they wanted to hit CO2 targets - and politicians are not good at holding more than one thing in their heads at once so it's "Diesels are good on CO2, right?", "well, yes, but it's not as simple as that, take particulate emissions for example...", "yes,yes, but they are good on CO2, right?" CO2 is the flavour of the month and that's that - politicians want simple, easy answers to difficult, very complicated questions - nothing new there. And, don't forget, the diesel bubble mentioned on this board is a UK only thing - diesel car sales vary in different markets according to governmental policy/taxation. The car companies were not wild about it - a diesel car costs more to make but it's very hard to sell them for enough of a premium to cover the higher costs.... But if the customers are voting with their cheque books because the government is urging them that way - what will the car companies do - sell them what they want - what else could they do?

EV's - the car industry has been dragged kicking and screaming into the manufacture of EV's and have only done so because deadlines have been imposed be it 2030, 2035, 2050. The car companies know the problems and the issues but they have been put in a position where they make EV's or they stop being car companies - hardly a conspiracy on their part. And they have no time left! The development of a new engine based on existing technology and manufacturing processes takes years in automotive powertrain terms 2030 is tomorrow, 2035 is tomorrow evening.... The governments say "no more piston engined cars (even if they run on hydrogen) after 2030 so the car companies have no choice but to believe them - and if, as seems increasingly likely, the governments have to back down - well, at least they will all be in the same boat. Meanwhile the costs of developing their new EV products is HUMUNGOUS not only is the powertrain new, the gearboxes (many EV's still need them) are different, the vehicle structure is different, the crash behaviour is different, the heating and ventilation is different - no more hot water from the engine, no more slapping an aircon compressor on the side, the electrics generally are different, the brakes are different I could go on.... So there is a lot to do and a lot of cost - when it comes to manufacture the processes are, in many areas different, factory layouts are different - again it goes on. And it's not just the cost - if they WANTED to continue development of the good old combustion engine as well - the engineers are just not available - you fancy trying to recruit young engineers into your piston engine department now? Good luck with that!

Hydrogen - I can remember a Hillman Imp with a sodding great welding set sized bottle of hydrogen diagonally across the passenger compartment running round the then School of Automotive Studies (so I can honestly say I am ex-SAS :) ) in 1973 - but it's not easy.... Storage is a big problem - to carry just a couple of kilos of hydrogen you need a "tank" weighing about 25 times that. It's the smallest molecule - it leaks through the tiniest gap, before you know where you are, the car you parked full yesterday is empty today. Then there is distributing it - same issues - and if the government isn't interested because "EV's don't have the NOx drawback do they?", "Well, no but it's not quite that sim...", "Yeah, yeah but we can just push EV's". I personally think hydrogen has great potential as a PART of the solution but let's not kid ourselves it's easy (you could buy a hydrogen fuelled BMW a few years ago - but they were not popular)

Why do I know this? I was part of it, an engine engineer for my entire career. I remember lead free - it caused me so much pain - we had to develop a new solution for an engine which didn't have room for conventional seat inserts and because we had resisted for so long there wasn't a lot of time so it was under-developed and risky - as it happened, it worked.... I still refer to working on an EV as "going to the dark side". But to suggest that those working in the auto industry could develop and sustain a conspiracy along the lines suggested is deeply comical.
 
Just my two penny's worth, what happens in the near future when two of these vehicles are drivern by idiots and collide at high speed? Will it be like bumper cars (there electric) or will it be like bonfire night +sparklers
 
Just remember... Back in the late 80s/early 90s, in UK n Europe, unleaded petrol was going to save the planet because it only produced water n CO2 out the back end.
Also ensured kids sat in the back seat on filling side got leukemia from the toxic fumes they were breathing in.
Meanwhile, in California, doctors were saying the only way you're going to die from lead poisoning is when hits you at high velocity as a shaped lump.
By end of 90s studies showed there was more highly toxic heavy metals in the gutters from catalytic converters in that decade than there was lead from the previous 100 years of motoring.
Apparently, CO2 is currently killing the world.
Now we have environment/ecological destroying EVs from the same mouths.
Who are these planks (apologies to any shaped lumps of wood)?
 
The sooner people stop buying electric vehicles the better. The disadvantages of owning one are now coming to light and outweighing the so-called advantages. Vote with your wallet!
 
Just remember... Back in the late 80s/early 90s, in UK n Europe, unleaded petrol was going to save the planet because it only produced water n CO2 out the back end.
Also ensured kids sat in the back seat on filling side got leukemia from the toxic fumes they were breathing in.
Meanwhile, in California, doctors were saying the only way you're going to die from lead poisoning is when hits you at high velocity as a shaped lump.
By end of 90s studies showed there was more highly toxic heavy metals in the gutters from catalytic converters in that decade than there was lead from the previous 100 years of motoring.
Apparently, CO2 is currently killing the world.
Now we have environment/ecological destroying EVs from the same mouths.
Who are these planks (apologies to any shaped lumps of wood)?
I appreciate the use of irony and exaggeration to make a point but there are also factual errors here stated as facts:

1) Nobody ever seriously suggested lead emissions from petrol were going to kill anyone only that the levels in high traffic areas were high enough to harm the neurological development of our children. There is a wealth of evidence proving the toxic properties of lead and other heavy metals.

2) There are no heavy metals in catalytic converters so they can't cause heavy metal pollution! The catalytic constituents are platinum, rhodium and palladium, there may be some use of iridium too. These are not "heavy metals" these are platinoid group elements. They are also fiercely expensive - platinum is the cheap one - so there is no great enthusiasm for chucking them out of the exhaust! Inevitably tiny amounts are lost but nothing in comparison with the lead from petrol - and the toxicity of these metals and any compounds of them in the environment is exceedingly low. I would be fascinated to see these studies from the 90's showing evidence of "highly toxic heavy metals from catalytic converters" but I think you will find that they exist only as "but I saw/heard them referred to in this or that post/article/programme etc etc etc" - show us the original research papers.

3) I am not sure what point the reference to leukemia was in aid of - but there is some relevance to petrol although none to lead in petrol! Benzene is the particular carcinogen that is found not only in petrol but also in the raw exhaust fumes. The issue is not so much breathing in the concentrated fumes during refuelling, although in the US many pumps are fitted with kit that prevents the escape of fumes when refilling, in some areas it is mandatory. It is the low level, background level of benzene in urban air.

So the first thing is to limit the proportion of benzene that is permitted in petrol - and that has been the case for years at 1% max. Next is the requirement for equipment to limit "evaporative emissions" from vehicles - so any fuel evaporating within the fuel system is not simply vented to atmosphere as it used to be, it is captured in a special canister and directed into the engine inlet system when the engine is running - you have a petrol car less than about 35 years old - you have one of these. Finally exhaust emissions - well, benzene is a hydrocarbon and so comes under the "HC" aspect of emission control which has become stricter and stricter over the years until now, as far as HC and NOx are concerned, we may have reached the point where there is little more to be gained by reducing the limits - further benefits will come by requiring cars to meet those limits in "real world driving conditions" and not a lab test cycle.

So the comment on leukemia actually makes the case against the broad thrust of the argument apparently being made - if we want to reduce things like leukemia - we really need exactly the sort of legislation being ridiculed. Furthermore - it has been that legislation that has got the technology to the point where EV's as a blanket solution are actually less useful than using them as a part of the overall transport solution mix where they undoubtedly do have a place....
 
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