Hunting Squirrel control using pine martens.

[Dr B]

I think the point of the video is people aren’t shooting enough grey squirrels to put a dent in their population, so if you reintroduce a natural predator that has been shown to eradicate greys effectively then the reds will bounce back. But don’t worry there will still be plenty of rabbits you could shoot if the greys disappear

But that's not true. Lots of new red strongholds now in my region due purely to shooting and trapping.
Edit - its crucial that debates and opinions on this are evidence-based.

 

[Dr B]

Did you miss that graph in the video, that claim seemed to be disputed.
No direct (negative) impact on red numbers from the introduction of martens.
--edit--
from about 5:08-5:25 in the video.

But the data are not real - it is estimation, so then ask those making those claims - what are the estimates based on? Ive asked, years ago. It seems the answer was made up. Some of the early research said PMs take around 2-4% only of reds. Push them on where that number came from. It's made up. Truth is a weak presence of reds wont stick around with a PM in the area. The PM will take them and the reds only survive due to being higher in the trees and being on the ground less, but this itself is mediated by the type of woodland. Low height trees makes them a sitting duck. Its always more complicated than it first seems. I wrote a long thread on this a while ago so it might be searchable on here (but my memory isnt great, so it may have been AGF1). The true reality is PMs might be good in some areas, but not all. There is no magic single solution. We need all approaches optimised for the different circumstances and some places we definately do not need or want martens.

 

[Dr B]

Yes an interesting idea to return a natural predator to our more significant woods.
I do wonder what other species they impact, they are not single food source selective, and obviously have no issues taking something the size of hens eggs.
That could make keeping chickens harder, by the introduction of another protected large mustelid.

They are also going to be less effective in grey strongholds like parks and urban landscapes.

Good point and one already discussed in the wider conversation. PMs will take small mammals like mice, voles, shrews etc which begs the question as to what the owls will be living on....

Like I say, good question.

 

[Dr B]

I would think that foxes would regulate marten numbers ?

Foxes cant climb, and dont underestimate the PM to defend itself. Mink are notorious and they are smaller and can be present in lands with foxes. Mustalids are the 'special forces' of the wild in many respects, the only reason mink are not more of a problem is that they are territorial, and so you tend only get one adult (or a mating pair of them) in a given small area. They'll fish the rivers dry as well.

 

[NEIL MCMLX]

I wasn't suggesting foxes can climb, but Marten don't spend their entire lives above ground do they? I was suggesting that their numbers would be controlled by predation and/or availability of prey. I'm well aware of problems mink cause, having seen my mates flock devastated by one. So you don't think the reintroduction of marten is a good idea? What is your solution to stop the reds from extinction?

 

[Dr B]

I wasn't suggesting foxes can climb,

I was pointing out how PMs can stay out of the foxes way.

I was suggesting that their numbers would be controlled by predation and/or availability of prey.

I pointed out that mink do very well in fox areas (Im involved in several places that speak to this). A PM is bigger and there is no reason to assume this works against them in terms of fending off foxes (which are more of a problem for chucks than other predators).

I'm well aware of problems mink cause, having seen my mates flock devastated by one. So you don't think the reintroduction of marten is a good idea? What is your solution to stop the reds from extinction

You must be new on here? The search function is your friend. But your assumptions about foxes dealing with PMs tells me you're not overly involved in fieldwork. I was merely commenting on that

 

[NEIL MCMLX]

I was pointing out how PMs can stay out of the foxes way.


I pointed out that mink do very well in fox areas (Im involved in several places that speak to this). A PM is bigger and there is no reason to assume this works against them in terms of fending off foxes (which are more of a problem for chucks than other predators).



You must be new on here? The search function is your friend. But your assumptions about foxes dealing with PMs tells me you're not overly involved in fieldwork. I was merely commenting on that

It was more an enquiry whether fox would keep PM numbers controlled. Didn't ask for a flippant answer. You bought mink into the conversation, I didn't. Sorry to have troubled you Dr

 

[Dr B]

It was more an enquiry whether fox would keep PM numbers controlled. Didn't ask for a flippant answer. You bought mine into the conversation, I didn't. Sorry to have troubled you Dr

My answer wasnt flippant. It addressed what you raised. No trouble at all. Do feel free to come again.....

 

[NEIL MCMLX]

My answer wasnt flippant. It addressed what you raised. No trouble at all. Do feel free to come again.....

Foxes can't climb trees...not flippant?? Give your head a wobble

 

[Dr B]

Foxes can't climb trees...not flippant?? Give your head a wobble

Why are you still talking? You mentioned about foxes possibly controlling PMs, and I mentioned foxes cant climb. Hence how's it going to get a PM in the trees? Ive not even mentioned how PMs are fine around fast moving rivers and foxes, unless being chased by hounds, are very reluctant. Im just in first gear buddy..... The answer to your original question is simple. No.

 

[NEIL MCMLX]

Why are you still talking? You mentioned about foxes possibly controlling PMs, and I mentioned foxes cant climb. Hence how's it going to get a PM in the trees? Ive not even mentioned how PMs are fine around fast moving rivers and foxes, unless being chased by hounds, are very reluctant. Im just in first gear buddy..... The answer to your original question is simple. No.

Where did I say it would catch a PM in a tree??? And yeah I'm still talking. I didn't realise I was talking to Packham mk2

 

[Stephen@]

But that's not true. Lots of new red strongholds now in my region due purely to shooting and trapping.
Edit - its crucial that debates and opinions on this are evidence-based.

You say “But that’s not true.” Please could you enlighten me as to what part of my post was a lie ?

 

[Dr B]

You say “But that’s not true.” Please could you enlighten me as to what part of my post was a lie ?

I did in my response. There is lots of evidence of reds recovering in several areas as a direct result of shooting and trapping. I was not accusing anyone of lying (and that was never said) - just that the statement was untrue.

 

[Dr B]

Where did I say it would catch a PM in a tree??? And yeah I'm still talking. I didn't realise I was talking to Packham mk2

FFS..... you mentioned about foxes possibly controlling PMs, I mentioned no, as foxes dont climb (but PMs do). Its no more complicated than that. BTW - when pine martens were rife, so were foxes.... soooooooo errrrrrrr.... ?????

Packham????

 

[NEIL MCMLX]

FFS..... you mentioned about foxes possibly controlling PMs, I mentioned no, as foxes dont climb (but PMs do). Its no more complicated than that. BTW - when pine martens were rife, so were foxes.... soooooooo errrrrrrr.... ?????

So according to the good dr PM don't ever touch the ground ie they sleep in trees??? Ffs right back at ya

 

[NEIL MCMLX]

So according to the good dr PM don't ever touch the ground ie they sleep in trees??? Ffs right back at ya

You are a prickly one ain't ya?

 

[Dr B]

So according to the good dr PM don't ever touch the ground ie they sleep in trees??? Ffs right back at ya

Are you on th sauce sweetheart? Never in this thread has anyone said that. Look, best thing to do is calm down, go back and re-read. You mentioned about foxes predating PMs and I mentioned why thats unlikely. Lets concentrate on the evidence (if you can) and you'll see my points resonate. No need to attack me. Like I say, you're clearly new.

 

[Dr B]

You are a prickly one ain't ya?

Not at all - but stay focused on the evidence and the debate my friend. Play the argument, not the player.

 

[Stephen@]

I did in my response. There is lots of evidence of reds recovering in several areas as a direct result of shooting and trapping. I was not accusing anyone of lying (and that was never said) - just that the statement was untrue.

So by saying the statement was untrue, you are actually saying that if the greys are eradicated effectively red squirrel numbers would not rise.

 

[Dr B]

So by saying the statement was untrue, you are actually saying that if the greys are eradicated effectively red squirrel numbers would not rise.

No. Ive no idea what you're saying as it is not a logical extension of my comments.

Edit: you said "I think the point of the video is people aren’t shooting enough grey squirrels to put a dent in their population",......
my response is that this is not true. People are putting a dent in populations. Obviously much more needs to be done, but significant inroads have been done.