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the Daily hi thread
More on the .21 Sharp
- Thread starter Rich79
- Start date
Teutchter Boy
Super member
Interesting. When I first heard about this new calibre I was wondering what the point of it was, however clearly it is pitched at a lead ban and so could work, albeit here in the UK. 22lr subs are the main draw of the .22lr. I wonder if a subsonic will work in .21?
Not watched the video yet so my comments , may be brought up in the video.
It will be the same issue as .22lr I suspect . They need to get the weight up to keep it in flight that is why there is no Lead free .22lr at present in subsonic , there may be but more on that later.
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The primer mixture is evenly placed all around the rim for positive ignition and there is a 2.4gr powder charge (Eley Subsonic uses 1gr of powder) that almost fills the case to the base of the bullet when seated.
42grn Winnie on the left and 24grn RWS lead free on the right .
To get the weight up they need to make the bullet larger which is hard to do as the bullet wont fit the chamber if longer nor the magazine or find another bullet material ( not the right word I know ) that is heavier and can match the same size as they have for the HV ones and lower the amount of powder required .
Winnie sub .
RWS
RWS 24grn . Any larger and it wont fit the magazine or the chamber of the rifle .
Hortonium may be an option https://www.hortonguns.com/?page_id=819
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We have tested some 15 different calibres including 22LR (yes 40 grain plus and subsonic), 243, 270, 308, 38 Special amongst others, all performed like lead in terms of grouping and upon impact/penetration into ballistic gel.
Sarge
Member Extraordinaire
I wouldn't say subs are the main draw for 22lr in the UK. Maybe for hunters but the quantities are small compared to the target shooters who will use a mixture of speeds. Many target rounds are close or just below supersonic but aren't marketed as such.
The biggest thing against the 21 in the UK to my mind is the lack of semi-auto use. This will prohibit them from many competitions like minirifle, gallery rifle, etc, and this will impact the take up limiting sales and making the cost of ammo higher from the lack of volume.
Will the bullet be allowed on indoor ranges that have a jacket ban? Or be allowed on steel targets? What's the splash-back distance?
Maybe a law change that allows the 21-semi-auto then I can see it taking off better. It'll still have a long way to go to beat the 22lr in the popularity stakes and price-wise.
The biggest thing against the 21 in the UK to my mind is the lack of semi-auto use. This will prohibit them from many competitions like minirifle, gallery rifle, etc, and this will impact the take up limiting sales and making the cost of ammo higher from the lack of volume.
Will the bullet be allowed on indoor ranges that have a jacket ban? Or be allowed on steel targets? What's the splash-back distance?
Maybe a law change that allows the 21-semi-auto then I can see it taking off better. It'll still have a long way to go to beat the 22lr in the popularity stakes and price-wise.
ThermionicValveTech
Super member
There's nothing to stop them using a short case and a longer 60gr bullet for subsonics if they've specified in a faster twist rate for the rifles.
There's a lot of issues this could resolve with 22LR but the question is will it catch on? Nobody knows. It could be the next big thing, it might by the next 17 HM2.
There's a lot of issues this could resolve with 22LR but the question is will it catch on? Nobody knows. It could be the next big thing, it might by the next 17 HM2.
Rich79
Member Extraordinaire
They could use .22 short!There's nothing to stop them using a short case and a longer 60gr bullet for subsonics if they've specified in a faster twist rate for the rifles.
There's a lot of issues this could resolve with 22LR but the question is will it catch on? Nobody knows. It could be the next big thing, it might by the next 17 HM2.
Genuine question . Would that not mean the rifle would only be suitable for the subsonic only ?There's nothing to stop them using a short case and a longer 60gr bullet for subsonics if they've specified in a faster twist rate for the rifles.
There's a lot of issues this could resolve with 22LR but the question is will it catch on? Nobody knows. It could be the next big thing, it might by the next 17 HM2.
chouchin66
Top Tier member
Aguila Ammunition has had heavyweight / short cased bullets , for years - " Aguila Sniper
Subsonic " using a 60 gr. pill. The issue with pushing a heavier bullet faster , in .22 LR , is exceeding SAAMI/ CIP allowable chamber pressures.
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What I was meaning is would the shorter high velocity bullet work in a barrel designed for the longer heavier bullets ?
From some of what I have seen about the SSS is that they often work better in a 1:9 twist than the 1:16 but others say they work well in their 1:16 .
chouchin66
Top Tier member
Based on velocites / bullet weight there will be a break point at which a given range of bullet weights will stabilize & be accurate. I'd say for decent accuracy 1:16 is questionable for anything but tin cans... perceptions of accuracy differ. Off topic a bit - the reason the .244 Remington ( later 6mm Remington) failed in compare to the .243 Winchester is a slight twist rate difference 1:12 for the former, was only good up to 90 grains, whereas 1:10 in the Winnie would do 105 grains.
Sarge
Member Extraordinaire
Not sure what these 'pills' you speak of are
, but the Aguila Sniper SubSonic (SSS) with it's 60gn bullet had stability issue in all the standard barrelled 22lr rifles we tried but in the ARs using the m261 and Ciener kits they were spot on, twists rates of 1:9" to 1:7".I still have about a thousand of these left, for when I want something to stay hit when I hit it
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ThermionicValveTech
Super member
I was referring to a .21 sharp version of this but the twist rate of .22LR is insufficient to stabilise these Aguila, if the rifles come with a fast enough twist rate, they will work with this formula.
ThermionicValveTech
Super member
Not sure what these 'pills' you speak of are
I still have about a thousand of these left, for when I want something to stay hit when I hit it
Correct you need a rifle twist rate specifically manufactured for these, but let's be honest the majority of the bullets were used for silent close range work by the Mafia and such where stability wasn't much of an issue.