Group size

[Mick_Green]

I would say that once you find the pellets that your barrel likes the best, you want to be cloverleafing .177 pellets at 30 to 40 yards indoors. That cloverleafing will be down to the shooter and not the rifle.

 

[Deerstalker]

May be of some help.

One MOA Calculation (Note, MOA = minute of angle).

This is how you can determine the one MOA for any target.

• Determine the distance or range to this target.
• Convert this number to inches or centimeters for metric.
• Double this number. (Diameter of a circle at this target distance or range).
• Use Pi, 3.14159 times the number in step 3. (Circumference of a circle is Pi x D).
• Divide this number by 21,600. (Note 21,600 is the number of minutes in a circle, 360 degrees times 60 minutes in one degree).

This number is the one MOA in inches, or centimeters if used, for this distance or range to the target. (Group shots are measured center to center).

Example:

• 100 yards to target.
• 100 times 3’ times 12” equal 3600” to the 100 yard target.
• 3600” x 2 equal 7200”. (Diameter of 100 yard circle in inches).
• Pi 3.14159 times 7200” equal 22,619.448”. (Circumference of 100 yard circle).
• 22,619.448” divided by 21,600 = 1.04719”. (One MOA at 100 yards in inches).

This number is usually rounded to 1” for one MOA at 100 yards. The one MOA equal 1” is an ARC measurement and not a straight line as it is a very small section, 1” of the overall circle circumference at 100 yards.

A trivia note, one MOA on the moon is about 69.5 miles, 111.85 Kilometers! (238,900 miles, 384,472.28 Kilometers to the moon).

 

[1066]

It would be not as good as expected. Quality pcps can shoot 3 out of 5 shots through the same single pellet hole at 25 yds not all the time but quite regularly depending on the capabilities of the shooter i have a rifle that will shoot 3 out of 5 at 50yds quite often. But is an exceptional rifle not the norm. I am in a full bore rifle club I would say the .22rim fire lads in general dont shoot groups anywhere near as tight as the air rifle guys generaly. The ranges are 25 and 50yds indoors.

I've found, that in general, under competition conditions, a good rimfire will shoot tighter groups than an air rifle under almost all conditions and ranges.
Yes, over the last 20 years air rifles have come on in leaps and bounds and can be very accurate but in like for like competitions the rimfire will usually win.
In NSRA 25yd benchrest you can use air or rimfire using the same target - the .177 holes being gauged with a .22 gauge but rarely have I seen any consistent winners with an air rifle.
These are several rounds of Div 1 of a county league with rimfire (25yd benchrest)

and these are Div 1 (often the same shooters) with air (25yd benchrest)

You can clearly see that the rimfire rifles score better than the air rifles (These are good quality air rifles LG400, Styre LG110, Anschutz 915's etc.)

 

[SevernSide]

Are groups measured centre to centre, or maximum edges? Makes a huge differance at the granularity discussed here. 12mm centre-centre at 50 yards, could be 16.5mm edge to edge, that's a roughly 85-90% increase in group size.

 

[SevernSide]

Are groups measured centre to centre, or maximum edges? Makes a huge differance at the granularity discussed here. 12mm centre-centre at 50 yards, could be 16.5mm edge to edge, that's a roughly 85-90% increase in group size.

Bit of reading, seems like it's centre to centre (c-c) when discussing group size and accuracy.

By my calculations when shooting .177 at 25 yards:

1MOA = 6.6mm c-c or 11.0mm e-e
2 MOA = 13.2mm c-c or 17.7mm e-e (or a 5p coin! )
3 MOA = 19.8mm c-c or 24.3 e-e (or a 10p coin!)

I think the coin reference is an easy check and 2MOA is what I'll be chasing with a HW95 at 25yards.

Not that I'll be close, but e-e with a 5p at 50 yards is 1MOA.

 

[chouchin66]

Are groups measured centre to centre, or maximum edges? Makes a huge differance at the granularity discussed here. 12mm centre-centre at 50 yards, could be 16.5mm edge to edge, that's a roughly 85-90% increase in group size.

Measuring group size, extreme spread ( furthest outside to outside) of holes & then deduct 1 caliber.

 

[rkr]

Good 12 fpe airguns can do half MOA at shorter ranges (25M and less) in calm, that's what I expect from my guns. I have to say your 0.3 MOA requirement for centerfires is tough, most people are happy to achieve even sub MOA continuously at 100M. Personally I can do occasional 0.4 MOA group but not all the time. These were 5 shot groups, shoot ten shot groups and things get even worse.

 

[BallisticBill]

I can consistently put a group through the eye of a needle at 50yds.

PS - that's a Biblical "eye of the needle" - the back door of a compound.... a bit smaller than your typical barn door!

 

[Fox Tales]

Good 12 fpe airguns can do half MOA at shorter ranges (25M and less) in calm, that's what I expect from my guns. I have to say your 0.3 MOA requirement for centerfires is tough, most people are happy to achieve even sub MOA continuously at 100M. Personally I can do occasional 0.4 MOA group but not all the time. These were 5 shot groups, shoot ten shot groups and things get even worse.

I agree , 0.3 moa is tough to achieve and I should quantify this . I don't shoot big groups , during load development I shoot 3 and 5 shot groups and confirmed at distance . What's important to me is repeatability , the 1st 3 shots out of the barrel need to give me the same / similar result on any given day . My reason is simple , I shoot a fair number of crows and magpies at range , they rarely give the opportunity for a 2nd shot never mind a 3rd . Hence the groups are representative of what I'd be shooting in the field with a cold barrel . Statistically , 3 and 5 shot groups are of little use to target shooters this I understand , though some people could shoot barrels out before they'd be happy . I suspect if you included all shots put through any rifle the groups would far exceed 1 moa .
After 5 shots my groups also deteriorate , especially when shooting prone due to a spinal injury and me being a bit crap .

 

[AgDevon]

Majority of the time it’s the nite behind the butt once you have found the pellet your barrel likes!

 

[1066]

Are groups measured centre to centre, or maximum edges? Makes a huge differance at the granularity discussed here. 12mm centre-centre at 50 yards, could be 16.5mm edge to edge, that's a roughly 85-90% increase in group size.

The generally accepted routine for group sizes is centre to centre and my target analysis software works that way - However, when batch testing .22lr match ammunition and their figures are outside edge to outside edge - So an Eley test group of 10 shots at 50m of 12mm would be one tight group - al lot different than a C to C 12mm group.

These are typical 50yd groups with my Anschutz Match 54 rifle :

And I would say that is about the same size I would get with my 6mmbr at 100yds, so about twice as accurate.

 

[2506sendero]

The generally accepted routine for group sizes is centre to centre and my target analysis software works that way - However, when batch testing .22lr match ammunition and their figures are outside edge to outside edge - So an Eley test group of 10 shots at 50m of 12mm would be one tight group - al lot different than a C to C 12mm group.

These are typical 50yd groups with my Anschutz Match 54 rifle :
View attachment 717127View attachment 717128 And I would say that is about the same size I would get with my 6mmbr at 100yds, so about twice as accurate.

Outstanding

 

[OldStock]

Target shooting is really not my thing, but purchase, adjustment and test of a gun, a new quieter backstop box from the scrap guy, and this thread, had me out trying.

I have now found that it helps to look over my varifocal glasses.
They are not very tall, and I always struggled to line up the top bit (that needed them pushed back up my nose), with the optical centre, while being aware of cheek weld, trigger pull and everything else.

I'm almost ashamed to say, this paper punching it is both relaxing and addictive once improvements can be seen.
The MOA calculation post from @Deerstalker too was good reference. Sometimes I do wonder if the forum is just being supportive when a group size is posted, while users quietly snicker. MOA is a bit more impersonal.
35y outside, my best 5 shot group (of nine in the session) was about 7mm C-C (.177 air) so not sub MOA, and not at 50y or more, but decent enough that I'm tempted to give it a bit more of a go, I just need to change the orientation as the hedge gives maximum 40y.

Thanks gents, another addiction.

 

[Fox Tales]

Save yourself the hassle of maths and download the Ballistic-X App .

 

[OldStock]

Save yourself the hassle of maths and download the Ballistic-X App .

But I'm old and doing a bit of maths is good for me.

 

[1066]

There are several apps that will give you accurate group measurement from a scan or photo as long as you set the reference correctly.
I've used "OnTarget" for a long time.
This is 200yds with my 6mmbr at .2moa
and some ammo testing at 50yds with my Anschutz:

 

[2506sendero]

There are several apps that will give you accurate group measurement from a scan or photo as long as you set the reference correctly.
I've used "OnTarget" for a long time.
This is 200yds with my 6mmbr at .2moa
and some ammo testing at 50yds with my Anschutz:


View attachment 717265
View attachment 717266

Can you tell us more about your BR, which is presumably a custom build, any photos?

 

[1066]

I've had my 6BR for a good while now and it's a joy to shoot. I made it up out of "off the peg" bits. I bought a Savage precision single shot action from North West guns, ordered a pre-fit select match barrel direct from Shillen in USA, a SAV-2 trigger direct from Rifle Basix, USA, 20moa scope rail direct from Ken Farrell, USA and semi-finished Boyd stock, again from USA. Glass is a Sightron S111 8-32x56 target scope, again bought direct.
After around 10 rounds to break the barrel in, these were 45 consecutive shots at 109 yards (Siberia benches at Bisley) to sort out a load.
There was quite a stiff breeze on the day so was more concerned with elevation. Eventually settled on a load of 29.6 Varget with a 108gn Berger bullet, then a bit of fine tuning with seating depth. I took about 8 months to get the barrel as a personal import and a bit of paperwork but probably saved several hundred pounds buying all the stuff direct. The Savage action lends it's self well to a self-build as the barrel is secured with a nut. If you have the correct spanner and the go/no go gauges you can change the barrels yourself.

 

[ricardolamos]

Using a .177 springer at 25m the best rested 5 shot group I have achieved is 7mm edge to edge which I understand is just under 1 MOA.
Don't think I am going to do much better thank this as I get older!

 

[rkr]

Using a .177 springer at 25m the best rested 5 shot group I have achieved is 7mm edge to edge which I understand is just under 1 MOA.
Don't think I am going to do much better thank this as I get older!

That's about 1/3rd of MOA as groups are usually measured ctc. Good shooting, especially with a springer.