• the Daily hi thread just say hi :)
  • please everyone if you have a question and get given a possibe solution if it works please update your thread as it may help others.

Piston weight

JimPlas

Super member
Joined
Dec 10, 2023
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4,846
Location
Powys
“The spring/piston airgun is the most fiendishly complicated machine ever devised by man”.

(The late Emeritus Professor of Engineering Mike Wright, Bsc, PhD, FRenG, FImechE, FIMA etc).

Attempts to understand what goes on inside a spring/piston airgun using logic are usually wrong, from fitting a beefier mainspring increases power (usually the opposite) to enlarging the transfer port allows more air to flow and raises power (plain wrong). Since the dawn of the Internet, people have been publishing their explanations of the springer shot cycle, and many of the falsehoods have gained traction, some becoming accepted as fact.

So, let’s take a look at what really happens when you increase piston weight (more properly piston mass). The subject of the test is my spare .177” TX200 Mk.3, modified to have 85mm of available stroke, running a factory mainspring and piston seal. The piston weighs 210g, and I tested it with and without a 27g weight, preloaded to give roughly the same muzzle energy, with Air Arms Field and Bisley Magnum pellets.

piston weight.webp


Logic would suggest that recoil displacement (travel) would be greater with the piston weight, yet the test reveals that the recoil was less with the weight. Logic would suggest that piston bounce and hence recoil surge would be less with the piston weight, but the test shows that it was greater with the weight. It is the pellet that has the greater effect on piston bounce, the Bisley Magnum producing far more bounce than the Air Arms Field.

Logic would suggest that the piston weight will compress the air to a higher pressure and, for once, logic is correct. Logic would further suggest that the higher cylinder pressure would result in higher muzzle energy and, as usual, logic is wrong. Why? The answer is that the piston weight is less good at slowing the transition from piston forward travel to bounce than spring preload, so the higher pressure is maintained for a shorter period.

Piston weight 2.webp


I hope everyone finds this interesting, and conclude by suggesting that anything you read about the spring/piston airgun shot cycle on the internet is probably wrong assuming, as Miles Morris says, that you can believe this.
 
And this is why we love having you join this forum Thankyou spinning

I'm bit behind when it comes to all this with springers, I kind of follow it, but in all honesty I need someone to spell it out for me so my assumptions are kept in check. I look forward to more of the same, I'm sure you have a shed load (probably literally:ROFLMAO:) of things you can share with us that will challenge our understanding and thinking (y)

James
 
Very interesting…
This perhaps goes some way to explaining and affirming why it’s so important to check the power of every brand new gun. And then after every minor alteration in tuning it to your own liking. Your piston @ 210g is 6g lighter than my tx200 & your 27g weight, which I assume is the factory standard fitted steel weight is 3g lighter than mine. The combination of 9g extra has to have an influence on power output and shot cycle; combine that with every spring batch being individual through its metallurgical makeup, heat treatment and final structure and it’s easy to run the risk of being in FAC territory by accident….
 
One of these days this is all going to make sense in my grey matter, love these technical posts 👌 (even if Im not enjoying my boinger atm)
 
“The spring/piston airgun is the most fiendishly complicated machine ever devised by man”.

(The late Emeritus Professor of Engineering Mike Wright, Bsc, PhD, FRenG, FImechE, FIMA etc).

Attempts to understand what goes on inside a spring/piston airgun using logic are usually wrong, from fitting a beefier mainspring increases power (usually the opposite) to enlarging the transfer port allows more air to flow and raises power (plain wrong). Since the dawn of the Internet, people have been publishing their explanations of the springer shot cycle, and many of the falsehoods have gained traction, some becoming accepted as fact.

So, let’s take a look at what really happens when you increase piston weight (more properly piston mass). The subject of the test is my spare .177” TX200 Mk.3, modified to have 85mm of available stroke, running a factory mainspring and piston seal. The piston weighs 210g, and I tested it with and without a 27g weight, preloaded to give roughly the same muzzle energy, with Air Arms Field and Bisley Magnum pellets.

View attachment 374832

Logic would suggest that recoil displacement (travel) would be greater with the piston weight, yet the test reveals that the recoil was less with the weight. Logic would suggest that piston bounce and hence recoil surge would be less with the piston weight, but the test shows that it was greater with the weight. It is the pellet that has the greater effect on piston bounce, the Bisley Magnum producing far more bounce than the Air Arms Field.

Logic would suggest that the piston weight will compress the air to a higher pressure and, for once, logic is correct. Logic would further suggest that the higher cylinder pressure would result in higher muzzle energy and, as usual, logic is wrong. Why? The answer is that the piston weight is less good at slowing the transition from piston forward travel to bounce than spring preload, so the higher pressure is maintained for a shorter period.

View attachment 374835

I hope everyone finds this interesting, and conclude by suggesting that anything you read about the spring/piston airgun shot cycle on the internet is probably wrong assuming, as Miles Morris says, that you can believe this.
I've read it three times and think I'm just getting there:ROFLMAO:

Thank you for taking the time to post stuff like this.(y)
 
Many thanks, everyone, and Nords, don't feel too smug, because the physics of the PCP is also largely counterintuitive.

To the OP I'd add that a 500g scope reduces the recoil shown to 4.5mm, and that not every springer in every state of tune will behave the same as the test rifle.
 
No smugness here, I promise. The fact that is an AirWolf with a big circuitboard inside, was meant to emphasise how it isn’t simple at all. Great thread, and makes me think about my 30mm HW80 piston, v’s my 25mm HW77 Venom piston, v’s a 22mm setup in my TX200 v’s a 28mm piston (?) in my FWB Sport v’s goodness knows what in the SA Jackal…

And then what is going on in my FWB 300s?
 
Good work!
What happens when you use lighter pellets? It would be interesting to see what happens with RS and lead-free pellets... whether the recoil increases when you go down to a weight where the efficiency reverses.

Can you tell us how you rigged the rifle and what equipment you used?
 
Good work!
What happens when you use lighter pellets? It would be interesting to see what happens with RS and lead-free pellets... whether the recoil increases when you go down to a weight where the efficiency reverses.

Can you tell us how you rigged the rifle and what equipment you used?
The rifle is upside down sliding in a fixed cradle. Set into cut down scope mounts on the rifle I have a neodymium rod magnet that runs inside a coil, and an accelerometer, both connected to a usb digital recording oscilloscope attached to a laptop.

Lighter pellets have mixed effects - it all hinges on exactly how far they are up the barrel at piston bounce, which depends on release pressure and kinetic friction.

I'll go into greater detail in future threads.
 
Bill,

You've probably worked it out for yourself, but I'll add that the magnet and coil record velocity as voltage, and that polarity indicates direction of travel. The graph shown is this data integrated, then scaled for the measured recoil displacement.
 
Force,mass and motion guys , some serious calculations going on there in our guns? Such a simple design but lots of maths involved! I'm crap at that!
 
Force,mass and motion guys , some serious calculations going on there in our guns? Such a simple design but lots of maths involved! I'm crap at that!
That's all mechanics, but the springer also encompasses thermodynamics, compressible fluid dynamics, tribology and, if it's dieseling, chemistry.
 
Yep and to many big words at this time in the morning 🤣.but it is very interesting.
Be good to see if different piston seals make any difference to the motion too?
 
Lighter pellets have mixed effects - it all hinges on exactly how far they are up the barrel at piston bounce, which depends on release pressure and kinetic friction.

I'll go into greater detail in future threads.
I wasn't surprised by the relative shapes of the AADF and BisMags. I'm quite happy shooting guns with a fairly lazy stroke. Where I struggle is the more slammy cycles so I'm keen to understand why that is. Objective measurements rather than opinions would be helpful and much appreciated. (y)
 
“The spring/piston airgun is the most fiendishly complicated machine ever devised by man”.

(The late Emeritus Professor of Engineering Mike Wright, Bsc, PhD, FRenG, FImechE, FIMA etc).

Attempts to understand what goes on inside a spring/piston airgun using logic are usually wrong, from fitting a beefier mainspring increases power (usually the opposite) to enlarging the transfer port allows more air to flow and raises power (plain wrong). Since the dawn of the Internet, people have been publishing their explanations of the springer shot cycle, and many of the falsehoods have gained traction, some becoming accepted as fact.

So, let’s take a look at what really happens when you increase piston weight (more properly piston mass). The subject of the test is my spare .177” TX200 Mk.3, modified to have 85mm of available stroke, running a factory mainspring and piston seal. The piston weighs 210g, and I tested it with and without a 27g weight, preloaded to give roughly the same muzzle energy, with Air Arms Field and Bisley Magnum pellets.

View attachment 374832

Logic would suggest that recoil displacement (travel) would be greater with the piston weight, yet the test reveals that the recoil was less with the weight. Logic would suggest that piston bounce and hence recoil surge would be less with the piston weight, but the test shows that it was greater with the weight. It is the pellet that has the greater effect on piston bounce, the Bisley Magnum producing far more bounce than the Air Arms Field.

Logic would suggest that the piston weight will compress the air to a higher pressure and, for once, logic is correct. Logic would further suggest that the higher cylinder pressure would result in higher muzzle energy and, as usual, logic is wrong. Why? The answer is that the piston weight is less good at slowing the transition from piston forward travel to bounce than spring preload, so the higher pressure is maintained for a shorter period.

View attachment 374835

I hope everyone finds this interesting, and conclude by suggesting that anything you read about the spring/piston airgun shot cycle on the internet is probably wrong assuming, as Miles Morris says, that you can believe this.
I'd be interested to know how that rifle performs with FTT, Superdome and JSB Express Jim, to compare with the AA field
Cheers
 
I wasn't surprised by the relative shapes of the AADF and BisMags. I'm quite happy shooting guns with a fairly lazy stroke. Where I struggle is the more slammy cycles so I'm keen to understand why that is. Objective measurements rather than opinions would be helpful and much appreciated. (y)
What rifle, Bill? If I have the same here, I'll test that.

I'd be interested to know how that rifle performs with FTT, Superdome and JSB Express Jim, to compare with the AA field
Cheers
Probably be Monday before I can make a start, Rob.
 
Back
Top