How physics can help us understand and exploit barrel vibrations, Part 1

JohnFT

Active member
Joined
Mar 1, 2024
Messages
20
Reaction score
85
Location
USA
This is my first post in this forum and I just wanted to let you know that it's long and technical. However, the ideas are fairly basic and the most of the story is told by the figures. I learned a lot in the process of writing this post and hope that you find the long slog through it interesting and perhaps even enlightening!



My job as an experimental physicist is to come up with new measurements to observe phenomena that are hard to see. This gives us new insights and a better understanding of how the world works. The same can be applied to spring piston airguns, which can be very mysterious and enigmatic mechanical creatures! One phenomenon that is critical to the accuracy of airguns is the motion of the barrel. Where the muzzle points when a pellet leaves the barrel is probably the most important factor that decides where the pellet hits (or misses) the target. Unfortunately, this is hard to see as the muzzle vibrates very quickly with a small amplitude. In this article, I’ll describe two experiments that measure the muzzle orientation when the pellet leaves the muzzle of a Walther LGU spring piston air rifle. The first technique involves attaching different weights at the muzzle and measuring the corresponding changes in the point of impact (POI) at the target. If you have pieces of scrap metal and a way to attach them to the muzzle, you can do try this with your air rifle. The second technique involves some more advanced measurement equipment. This technique allows one to record the muzzle orientation as a function of time and determine the muzzle’s orientation at the time when the pellet leaves the barrel. Although the measurements are challenging, fun, and rewarding, this is not simply an academic exercise. These techniques allow one to tune the accuracy in a systematic way, that I have never seen before.



When measuring barrel vibrations, people usually look at the position of the muzzle. This gives a reasonable measure of the POI assuming the rest of the rifle hasn’t moved. If the muzzle height increases but the rest of the rifle is stationary the POI will go up. However, in real life, especially when dealing with spring piston air rifles, the rifle moves as well as the muzzle. For example, if the entire rifle moves up by 2 mm, the POI will move up by the same amount at ALL DISTANCES. What really matters is the orientation of the muzzle, not the position, when the pellet leaves the barrel. When we aim a rifle at a target, we don’t move the entire rifle up/down/left/right, we point the muzzle at the target! I strongly encourage you to check out and excellent article by Dr. Kolbe on how to measure the muzzle orientation (not position!) of a rifle and where the muzzle is pointing when a projectile leaves the barrel: http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

Figure 1 shows an exaggerated cartoon of the barrel flexing as the pellet leaves the muzzle. I will argue that the critical parameter is not the position of the muzzle when the pellet exits, but its angle. Of course, the two are related, but as already mentioned the entire rifle is also moving, so if one measures the muzzle to be 0.5 mm higher than its original position, part of it could be due to the barrel flexing upward but part of it could also be due to the entire rifle moving up.


Fig1.webp


The idea of standing waves and nodes in a rifle barrel is used a lot in discussing accuracy. Figure 2 shows the barrel forming a standing wave pattern that many of you have already seen. In this approach one visualizes the barrel vibrating like a string. Parts of the barrel go up and other parts go down (more on why up/down will be discussed later), with the height of the barrel at various places along the barrel greatly exaggerated so that one can see the standing wave. It’s called a standing wave because the peaks/dips do not move left or right. There are places in the wave where the barrel/string doesn’t move and these are called nodes. Halfway between the nodes, the barrel moves up and down with the greatest amplitude, and these are called antinodes. The different traces are snapshots of the wave at different times.

Fig2.webp

My measurements suggest that this framework isn’t very useful. Lots of people (maybe most?) think that for best accuracy, the muzzle should be at a vibration node, where it doesn’t move up or down. I have two problems with this. First of all, for a standing wave pattern to form, with nodes and antinodes, the waves in the barrel need to bounce back and forth from the ends to interfere with each other to form a standing wave. From the measurements that I made, the pellet leaves during the first oscillation of the barrel, as the initial vibration wave traveling down the barrel causes the muzzle to rise. Second, even if the barrel forms a standing wave, having the muzzle at a node could actually hurt accuracy.



Figure 2b shows the case where the muzzle is at a node (not moving up or down) in the wave pattern. Sure, the muzzle isn’t moving up or down, but at a node the orientation of the muzzle changes the most with time. So if the pellet leaves the muzzle at slightly different times, the muzzle orientation will have changed the most if it’s at a node! I don’t care much if the muzzle moves up or down a fraction of a millimeter (that will just move the POI up or down by the same amount at ALL distances), but I do care if the muzzle orientation changes, which will send the pellet in a different direction, moving the POI more at larger distances. Figure 2c shows the case where the muzzle is at an antinode, where it moves up and down the most. At an antinode, the muzzle is always pointing horizontally, but the motion of the muzzle perpendicular to the barrel will impart a transverse velocity vT to the pellet as it leaves the muzzle. This will move the pellet sideways different amounts depending on the magnitude and direction of vT. So ideally, we want the muzzle to be at an antinode (always pointing horizontal) and at a max or min of the motion (muzzle briefly stops before heading in the other direction and does not put any transverse velocity on the pellet).



As we will see, the standing wave framework is not well suited to dealing with actual barrel vibrations. I mainly brought it up to bring into question some commonly accepted ideas about barrel vibration and to get you thinking about how barrel motion affects accuracy. In the measurements that we’ll examine shortly, the muzzle angle initially goes up and then moves down. It’s certainly not an antinode (where barrel is always horizontal) but it’s not clear if it’s at a node. In any case, that kind of thinking doesn’t help us much anyway. The key to the best accuracy is to have the pellet leave the barrel when the muzzle orientation is changing the least in time. This happens at the top of a peak (or bottom of a dip) in the muzzle angle oscillation. Peaks are flat at the top, so right before the peak the muzzle angle increases more and more slowly, then at the peak the muzzle angle stays relatively constant with time, before it starts going back down again. The same argument can be used to justify the accuracy advantage of having the pellet leave the muzzle at the bottom of a dip/valley in the muzzle orientation oscillations.





So how does one ensure that the muzzle angle is the top (or bottom) of its swing? With centerfire rifles this can be done by tuning reloaded ammunition (changing powder type/weight, bullet seating depth, etc). People are also using tuners attached to the muzzle, which seem to work empirically, but it’s still not clear to me how/why they work (often incorrect arguments about standing waves are used to explain them). With spring piston air rifles, getting the pellet to leave the muzzle at a muzzle angle peak/dip can be accomplished by adding weight to the muzzle. The oscillation of the muzzle is controlled by two basic things: the stiffness of the barrel and the mass of the moving parts. One cannot readily change the barrel stiffness, but it’s easy to add weight to the muzzle, which will slow the oscillations down. The oscillation period (the time between peaks in the oscillations) is proportional to the square root of the moving mass. More mass means slower oscillations. Figure 3 shows the muzzle angle as a function of time (not the height of the barrel as function of the position of the barrel as in Fig. 2).

Fig3.webp



As the muzzle oscillates up and down, its orientation is also oscillating. In Fig. 3 with the original barrel mass (Mass 1), the pellet leaves the muzzle when it’s pointing down (negative muzzle angle). If the pellet leaves the muzzle slightly earlier, the muzzle will be pointing down even more, and if the pellet leaves the barrel at a slightly later time, the muzzle will be almost horizontal, as shown by the black dots on the blue curve. This actually could be used to compensate for slower pellets by ejecting them at a slightly higher muzzle angle (more horizontal) compared to faster pellets (point down more) to compensate for the greater drop of slower pellets at distance (please see Dr. Kolbe’s article), but in general we don’t want the launch angle to change when the pellet exit time changes a bit due to muzzle velocity changes. If we add mass to the muzzle, there is more mass to move (Mass 2 in Fig. 3), we can slow down the muzzle angle oscillations so that the pellet exits at a dip in muzzle angle. The nice thing about dips is that they are flat at the bottom, so the muzzle angle doesn’t change much for slightly longer/shorter exit times.



Before we go into measuring how the muzzle moves, let’s first think about in what direction we expect the muzzle to move. One could try to figure out all the forces acting on the barrel at different times, but that is hard. Physicists like to find the simplest answers possible! It turns out that there is a much simpler and more powerful way to think about this: symmetry. The idea of symmetry is one of the most fundamental and powerful principles in physics. It helps explain why barrels tend to vibrate vertically instead of horizontally. Most rifles are symmetrical on the left and right sides. So why would the barrel tend to favor the left or right side in its motion if both sides look exactly the same? On the other hand, rifles are highly asymmetric from top to bottom when held horizontally. The scope sits on top of the receiver, the receiver bolted to the stock, which is under the reciever, and the stock itself tends to drop at the buttpad. You can try to measure this motion with high resolution (in time and space) high speed cameras, but that is complicated and expensive. Instead, we can reveal this motion by simply adding weight to the muzzle and looking at the POI. As weight is added to the muzzle, the barrel vibrations slow down and therefore the pellet (which still takes the same amount of time to travel down the barrel) leaves the barrel when the muzzle is in at a slightly different orientation compared to the situation before the weight was added. By looking at the POI, I could keep track of the muzzle motion and confirm that for the most part, it’s vertical. This can be seen in Fig. 4 below.


Fig4.webp




I attached scrap brass to the muzzle of my LGU using the hole in the barrel shroud that was intended for the underlever latch screw (Fig. 4a). I then shot the LGU from the bench at a target 20 yards away with different masses attached to the muzzle (Fig. 4b). The POI is clearly moving up and a bit to the right as I started adding weight to the muzzle. The changes are large, with the POI moving up over an inch at 20 yards (5 MOA!) when around 100 g was added to the muzzle. There is a small horizontal component, with the POI also shifting to the right as weight is added to the muzzle. This suggests that there is a horizontal asymmetry in the rifle, otherwise there would be no reason for the barrel to pick a side when it starts moving. What could be breaking the left/right symmetry? If I had to guess, it would be the loading port in the receiver, where more metal on the right side has been removed from the receiver. A good test of this hypothesis would be to look at POI changes in a rifle where the loading port is centered symmetrically on the top of the receiver, like a HW 97. Figure 4c shows the POI as a function of added muzzle mass. I made two runs on separate days to make sure that the results were reproducible, and indeed they are.

Please see Part 2 for conitnuation
 
Here's Part 2:

 
Here's Part 2:

I am very new to airgun shooting so please be patient.
In your very detailed post you mentioned that the waves need to bounce back and forth from the ends to interfere with each other to form a standing wave. But I was under the impression that shock waves pass through each other with no effect.
Why I say that is because when at school some 55 years ago one experiment the class did was to get an extremely long spring and at one end the child shook the spring up and down once and at the exact same time a child at the other end did the same but in a horizontal manner.
And all the class witnessed the two waves pass through each other.
The experiment was repeated with a length of rope and the outcome was the same.
The other thing I’m curious about is velocity vs horizon antinode, when the speed of the pellet is altered such as a lighter pellet the POI will change in the vertical plane obviously, but we also see a shift in the horizontal plane as well sometimes.
I know that in Rimfire competition they describe a cold bore POI change, but some other people say it is nothing to do with temperature but more to do with humidity and as a result the first shot has a higher velocity and this can have a shift in the both planes also.
This can be overcome by leaving the spent cartridge case in the breach and stretching a condom over the muzzle as to preserve the humidity as it cools down.
But alas I fear that in this country if you walk around with a condom over your muzzle you would not earn much respect.
I would prefer the second method of just blowing down the breach with a thick straw before my first shot, apparently that works also.
In any event will you touch more on this subject in our second lesson, but I warn you it won’t be a quick response because you are obviously above my pay grade and I don’t want to look too stupid.
 
This is my first post in this forum and I just wanted to let you know that it's long and technical. However, the ideas are fairly basic and the most of the story is told by the figures. I learned a lot in the process of writing this post and hope that you find the long slog through it interesting and perhaps even enlightening!



My job as an experimental physicist is to come up with new measurements to observe phenomena that are hard to see. This gives us new insights and a better understanding of how the world works. The same can be applied to spring piston airguns, which can be very mysterious and enigmatic mechanical creatures! One phenomenon that is critical to the accuracy of airguns is the motion of the barrel. Where the muzzle points when a pellet leaves the barrel is probably the most important factor that decides where the pellet hits (or misses) the target. Unfortunately, this is hard to see as the muzzle vibrates very quickly with a small amplitude. In this article, I’ll describe two experiments that measure the muzzle orientation when the pellet leaves the muzzle of a Walther LGU spring piston air rifle. The first technique involves attaching different weights at the muzzle and measuring the corresponding changes in the point of impact (POI) at the target. If you have pieces of scrap metal and a way to attach them to the muzzle, you can do try this with your air rifle. The second technique involves some more advanced measurement equipment. This technique allows one to record the muzzle orientation as a function of time and determine the muzzle’s orientation at the time when the pellet leaves the barrel. Although the measurements are challenging, fun, and rewarding, this is not simply an academic exercise. These techniques allow one to tune the accuracy in a systematic way, that I have never seen before.



When measuring barrel vibrations, people usually look at the position of the muzzle. This gives a reasonable measure of the POI assuming the rest of the rifle hasn’t moved. If the muzzle height increases but the rest of the rifle is stationary the POI will go up. However, in real life, especially when dealing with spring piston air rifles, the rifle moves as well as the muzzle. For example, if the entire rifle moves up by 2 mm, the POI will move up by the same amount at ALL DISTANCES. What really matters is the orientation of the muzzle, not the position, when the pellet leaves the barrel. When we aim a rifle at a target, we don’t move the entire rifle up/down/left/right, we point the muzzle at the target! I strongly encourage you to check out and excellent article by Dr. Kolbe on how to measure the muzzle orientation (not position!) of a rifle and where the muzzle is pointing when a projectile leaves the barrel: http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

Figure 1 shows an exaggerated cartoon of the barrel flexing as the pellet leaves the muzzle. I will argue that the critical parameter is not the position of the muzzle when the pellet exits, but its angle. Of course, the two are related, but as already mentioned the entire rifle is also moving, so if one measures the muzzle to be 0.5 mm higher than its original position, part of it could be due to the barrel flexing upward but part of it could also be due to the entire rifle moving up.


View attachment 526745


The idea of standing waves and nodes in a rifle barrel is used a lot in discussing accuracy. Figure 2 shows the barrel forming a standing wave pattern that many of you have already seen. In this approach one visualizes the barrel vibrating like a string. Parts of the barrel go up and other parts go down (more on why up/down will be discussed later), with the height of the barrel at various places along the barrel greatly exaggerated so that one can see the standing wave. It’s called a standing wave because the peaks/dips do not move left or right. There are places in the wave where the barrel/string doesn’t move and these are called nodes. Halfway between the nodes, the barrel moves up and down with the greatest amplitude, and these are called antinodes. The different traces are snapshots of the wave at different times.

View attachment 526746

My measurements suggest that this framework isn’t very useful. Lots of people (maybe most?) think that for best accuracy, the muzzle should be at a vibration node, where it doesn’t move up or down. I have two problems with this. First of all, for a standing wave pattern to form, with nodes and antinodes, the waves in the barrel need to bounce back and forth from the ends to interfere with each other to form a standing wave. From the measurements that I made, the pellet leaves during the first oscillation of the barrel, as the initial vibration wave traveling down the barrel causes the muzzle to rise. Second, even if the barrel forms a standing wave, having the muzzle at a node could actually hurt accuracy.



Figure 2b shows the case where the muzzle is at a node (not moving up or down) in the wave pattern. Sure, the muzzle isn’t moving up or down, but at a node the orientation of the muzzle changes the most with time. So if the pellet leaves the muzzle at slightly different times, the muzzle orientation will have changed the most if it’s at a node! I don’t care much if the muzzle moves up or down a fraction of a millimeter (that will just move the POI up or down by the same amount at ALL distances), but I do care if the muzzle orientation changes, which will send the pellet in a different direction, moving the POI more at larger distances. Figure 2c shows the case where the muzzle is at an antinode, where it moves up and down the most. At an antinode, the muzzle is always pointing horizontally, but the motion of the muzzle perpendicular to the barrel will impart a transverse velocity vT to the pellet as it leaves the muzzle. This will move the pellet sideways different amounts depending on the magnitude and direction of vT. So ideally, we want the muzzle to be at an antinode (always pointing horizontal) and at a max or min of the motion (muzzle briefly stops before heading in the other direction and does not put any transverse velocity on the pellet).



As we will see, the standing wave framework is not well suited to dealing with actual barrel vibrations. I mainly brought it up to bring into question some commonly accepted ideas about barrel vibration and to get you thinking about how barrel motion affects accuracy. In the measurements that we’ll examine shortly, the muzzle angle initially goes up and then moves down. It’s certainly not an antinode (where barrel is always horizontal) but it’s not clear if it’s at a node. In any case, that kind of thinking doesn’t help us much anyway. The key to the best accuracy is to have the pellet leave the barrel when the muzzle orientation is changing the least in time. This happens at the top of a peak (or bottom of a dip) in the muzzle angle oscillation. Peaks are flat at the top, so right before the peak the muzzle angle increases more and more slowly, then at the peak the muzzle angle stays relatively constant with time, before it starts going back down again. The same argument can be used to justify the accuracy advantage of having the pellet leave the muzzle at the bottom of a dip/valley in the muzzle orientation oscillations.





So how does one ensure that the muzzle angle is the top (or bottom) of its swing? With centerfire rifles this can be done by tuning reloaded ammunition (changing powder type/weight, bullet seating depth, etc). People are also using tuners attached to the muzzle, which seem to work empirically, but it’s still not clear to me how/why they work (often incorrect arguments about standing waves are used to explain them). With spring piston air rifles, getting the pellet to leave the muzzle at a muzzle angle peak/dip can be accomplished by adding weight to the muzzle. The oscillation of the muzzle is controlled by two basic things: the stiffness of the barrel and the mass of the moving parts. One cannot readily change the barrel stiffness, but it’s easy to add weight to the muzzle, which will slow the oscillations down. The oscillation period (the time between peaks in the oscillations) is proportional to the square root of the moving mass. More mass means slower oscillations. Figure 3 shows the muzzle angle as a function of time (not the height of the barrel as function of the position of the barrel as in Fig. 2).

View attachment 526748



As the muzzle oscillates up and down, its orientation is also oscillating. In Fig. 3 with the original barrel mass (Mass 1), the pellet leaves the muzzle when it’s pointing down (negative muzzle angle). If the pellet leaves the muzzle slightly earlier, the muzzle will be pointing down even more, and if the pellet leaves the barrel at a slightly later time, the muzzle will be almost horizontal, as shown by the black dots on the blue curve. This actually could be used to compensate for slower pellets by ejecting them at a slightly higher muzzle angle (more horizontal) compared to faster pellets (point down more) to compensate for the greater drop of slower pellets at distance (please see Dr. Kolbe’s article), but in general we don’t want the launch angle to change when the pellet exit time changes a bit due to muzzle velocity changes. If we add mass to the muzzle, there is more mass to move (Mass 2 in Fig. 3), we can slow down the muzzle angle oscillations so that the pellet exits at a dip in muzzle angle. The nice thing about dips is that they are flat at the bottom, so the muzzle angle doesn’t change much for slightly longer/shorter exit times.



Before we go into measuring how the muzzle moves, let’s first think about in what direction we expect the muzzle to move. One could try to figure out all the forces acting on the barrel at different times, but that is hard. Physicists like to find the simplest answers possible! It turns out that there is a much simpler and more powerful way to think about this: symmetry. The idea of symmetry is one of the most fundamental and powerful principles in physics. It helps explain why barrels tend to vibrate vertically instead of horizontally. Most rifles are symmetrical on the left and right sides. So why would the barrel tend to favor the left or right side in its motion if both sides look exactly the same? On the other hand, rifles are highly asymmetric from top to bottom when held horizontally. The scope sits on top of the receiver, the receiver bolted to the stock, which is under the reciever, and the stock itself tends to drop at the buttpad. You can try to measure this motion with high resolution (in time and space) high speed cameras, but that is complicated and expensive. Instead, we can reveal this motion by simply adding weight to the muzzle and looking at the POI. As weight is added to the muzzle, the barrel vibrations slow down and therefore the pellet (which still takes the same amount of time to travel down the barrel) leaves the barrel when the muzzle is in at a slightly different orientation compared to the situation before the weight was added. By looking at the POI, I could keep track of the muzzle motion and confirm that for the most part, it’s vertical. This can be seen in Fig. 4 below.


View attachment 526749




I attached scrap brass to the muzzle of my LGU using the hole in the barrel shroud that was intended for the underlever latch screw (Fig. 4a). I then shot the LGU from the bench at a target 20 yards away with different masses attached to the muzzle (Fig. 4b). The POI is clearly moving up and a bit to the right as I started adding weight to the muzzle. The changes are large, with the POI moving up over an inch at 20 yards (5 MOA!) when around 100 g was added to the muzzle. There is a small horizontal component, with the POI also shifting to the right as weight is added to the muzzle. This suggests that there is a horizontal asymmetry in the rifle, otherwise there would be no reason for the barrel to pick a side when it starts moving. What could be breaking the left/right symmetry? If I had to guess, it would be the loading port in the receiver, where more metal on the right side has been removed from the receiver. A good test of this hypothesis would be to look at POI changes in a rifle where the loading port is centered symmetrically on the top of the receiver, like a HW 97. Figure 4c shows the POI as a function of added muzzle mass. I made two runs on separate days to make sure that the results were reproducible, and indeed they are.

Please see Part 2 for conitnuation
When I got up and drank my coffee this morning you forced me to start using my brain in relation to your first post, and the more I thought about it the more I realised what I didn’t know about antinodes and nodes.
I can understand in your simple diagram where there is no angular movement at the node point and where they might be in relation to the barrel length in a two dimensional graph.
But there is also a horizontal muzzle angle that is at play also, and this is the point where I am uncertain, because there are two forces acting on the barrel both in different directions the barrel cannot move in two different directions at the same time.
So if the shock wave emanates from the breach I doubt there are two different forces at play, one on the x” axis and one on the y” axis. And as you said that physics likes to take the simplest route, could we assume there is only one force and that is travelling down the axis of the bore in a spiralling motion from the breach end.
This would then explain the shift in POI as the bullet or pellet speed changes.
But because of this action I have no way of comprehending where the node points are, the only way I can describe this action was if you picked up the end of a rope and tossed a loop action you would see the coil travel down the length of the rope.
But this would mean the muzzle angle would always point outward from the centre line of the bore until it ran out of energy, and thus we are fooled into thinking that where we thought there was no muzzle angle that there actually is at the 12 o” clock and 6 o” clock positions, but we just put it down to pellet drop !
 
I got to the first paragraph and though "just plink your airgun mate"

When the primrary objective is to put a pellet where youre aiming, all the science in the world wont stop a sneeze, twitch or unexpected breath of wind which throws all this research in the air.

Have fun lad, thats what its meant for
 
I got to the first paragraph and though "just plink your airgun mate"

When the primrary objective is to put a pellet where youre aiming, all the science in the world wont stop a sneeze, twitch or unexpected breath of wind which throws all this research in the air.

Have fun lad, thats what its meant for
Have you noticed how we have an expert lecturer who doesn’t want to communicate with his students ie us.
I only studied the first part and that took up all my concentration, barrel harmonics is not a set and forget science because it’s constantly changing.
Even the experts seem to be ditching their barrel tuners and YES your right, find the pellets your gun likes then zero the scope and leave the bloody thing alone. ( If it ain’t broke don’t fix it )
 
Humm! not sure if its a case of someone just flexing their brain muscles or serious, I think most of us are quite aware of the minute shock waves that travel the length of a barrel when fired, however, I am still in the makes very little difference in a sub 12 air rifle camp, and having been down the barrel weight/damping rute and still not using such devices I have no interest in pursuing it any further and although having a mild technical interest in fettling air rifles I would prefer to keep my shooting on the fun side.
 
When I got up and drank my coffee this morning you forced me to start using my brain in relation to your first post, and the more I thought about it the more I realised what I didn’t know about antinodes and nodes.
I can understand in your simple diagram where there is no angular movement at the node point and where they might be in relation to the barrel length in a two dimensional graph.
But there is also a horizontal muzzle angle that is at play also, and this is the point where I am uncertain, because there are two forces acting on the barrel both in different directions the barrel cannot move in two different directions at the same time.
So if the shock wave emanates from the breach I doubt there are two different forces at play, one on the x” axis and one on the y” axis. And as you said that physics likes to take the simplest route, could we assume there is only one force and that is travelling down the axis of the bore in a spiralling motion from the breach end.
This would then explain the shift in POI as the bullet or pellet speed changes.
But because of this action I have no way of comprehending where the node points are, the only way I can describe this action was if you picked up the end of a rope and tossed a loop action you would see the coil travel down the length of the rope.
But this would mean the muzzle angle would always point outward from the centre line of the bore until it ran out of energy, and thus we are fooled into thinking that where we thought there was no muzzle angle that there actually is at the 12 o” clock and 6 o” clock positions, but we just put it down to pellet drop !
Hi Stephen,

I used the standing wave picture because that's the framework most people use when they're talking about barrel vibration. I also wanted to point out a common misconception; for example, there was an article in Airgunner in 2020 that used a similar picture, but got it wrong (in my opinion). Please note that I'm actually measuring the orientation of my LGU muzzle using POI and Kolbe's crossed polarizer system, so I'm not relying on any arguments/analysis based on harmonics. The muzzle moves up and down (and slightly left and right), and I'm just trying to get the pellet to leave the barrel when the muzzle orientation is changing the least with time (so slight differences in pellet exit time won't be as critical). I'm not trying to figure out what's causing the muzzle to move (which is hard). The basic concepts are fairly straightforward, but I'm afraid that my explanations may have made things more complicated than they actually are.

Best wishes,
John

PS Please note that I'm doing most of my replies after Part 2 of this post, since that's at the end of all the material. If you have comments/suggestions, please put them there so that they're all in the same place. Unfortunately, the original material was too long to fit in a single post.

 
Please note the that the standing wave patterns/modes in Fig. 2 are WRONG. I was using the language that most people use when talking about barrel vibrations to make a point about nodes and antinodes (and the barrel orientations at those points) but a barrel that is anchored at the receiver and free floated along the remaining length should be treated as a cantilever. I was recently reminded of this by a friend who is a theoretical physicist.

The attached image (from an article in Smart Mater. Struct. 20 (2011) 105018) shows the first four (lowest frequency) modes of a vibrating cantilever. So one never gets a node at the muzzle of a barrel and the orientation of the barrel at the muzzle is never horizontal. Sorry about this mistake! However, it is still true that accuracy should be better (POI less sensitive to MV variations that cause pellets to leave muzzle at different time) when the slope of the barrel changes the least with time and the swinging of the barrel stops. Both these things happen at the bottom and the top of the barrel swing.
 

Attachments

  • cantilever_modes.webp
    cantilever_modes.webp
    37.5 KB · Views: 10
The end result is no good with knowing the cause of the wave and what causes it and how to reduce it John . should have done a site search first . been there and done it all Sir its how i achieve what i do with my specials.


Screenshot_20260330_200153_Video Player.webp

getting from this confusion
Screenshot_20220505-211907_Video Player.webp
to this takes hours and hours of work
Screenshot_20220505-212444_Video Player.webp
each working part of the cycle has to be defined. from its own dynamics. to how those dynamics react with the mechanics around that part . trigger to muzzel every single part has a input .
🙂 J
welcome to the forum chap 👍
 
The end result is no good with knowing the cause of the wave and what causes it and how to reduce it John . should have done a site search first . been there and done it all Sir its how i achieve what i do with my specials.


View attachment 947273

getting from this confusion
View attachment 947271
to this takes hours and hours of work
View attachment 947272
each working part of the cycle has to be defined. from its own dynamics. to how those dynamics react with the mechanics around that part . trigger to muzzel every single part has a input .
🙂 J
welcome to the forum chap 👍

Reducing the barrel vibrations is an excellent solution, but one can also improve accuracy by adding weight to the muzzle until the barrel swing slows down so that pellets tend to leave the muzzle when the muzzle orientation is changing the least with time (please see Fig. 3). If you can't beat barrel vibrations, you can at least modify them to optimize accuracy.

Cheers,
John
 
Reducing the barrel vibrations is an excellent solution, but one can also improve accuracy by adding weight to the muzzle until the barrel swing slows down so that pellets tend to leave the muzzle when the muzzle orientation is changing the least with time (please see Fig. 3). If you can't beat barrel vibrations, you can at least modify them to optimize accuracy.

Cheers,
John
Sorry chap not so . the start of the harmonic wave is generated by the action . no wave no barrel wobble . there is no need for a muzzel weight on a properly tuned rifle . a weight is a fix for something that shouldent be there in the first place . other wise manufacturers would fit lumps of steel as standard .
 
Sorry chap not so . the start of the harmonic wave is generated by the action . no wave no barrel wobble . there is no need for a muzzel weight on a properly tuned rifle . a weight is a fix for something that shouldent be there in the first place . other wise manufacturers would fit lumps of steel as standard .
So the barrel muzzle stays perfectly still during the firing cycle of a well-tuned springer? Maybe I shouldn't use the term harmonics, but the motion of the piston/action is definitely transmitted to the muzzle. I measured this using Kolbe's crossed polarizer setup. Of course, the entire rifle is moving so maybe the question is how much the muzzle moves relative to the rifle? Please find below some high speed videos of barrel motion in springers:


I agree that a well-tuned springer (especially if it's heavy like my FT rig) will have less barrel motion, but I would expect the muzzle to move due to the piston's violent motion. Even the firing pin strike in a powder-burning rifle generates muzzle motion according to what I've read. Of course there needs to be an asymmetry to convert the translational motion of the piston into lateral motion of the barrel, but this is provided by the stock which is attached to bottom of the receiver (pushes back on on the reciever off center). Maybe it's just a question of how large that muzzle motion is and how much that motion affects accuracy? I think that my LGU was well tuned and accurate, but I clearly measure muzzle motion using POI as well as the Kolbe setup.

Harold Vaughan does a great job of describing how/why barrels vibrate in his excellent "Rifle Accuract Facts" book:

The book is about powder-burning rifles, but many of the principles apply to air rifles.

Many of the best 22 rimfire as well as centerfire benchrest shooters use an adjustable muzzle weight/tuner to get the best accuracy, so those "lumps of steel" seem to be pretty important to them. I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about those tuners, especially how they can dramatically improve accuracy when they are moved fractions of a millimeter and I think people still don't really understand how they work, but it seems to me that there's a lot of evidence that muzzles move when rifles are fired, even in well-tuned rifles.

Cheers,
John
 
Ive been shooting springers for over. lets say 55 years . the way a springer is held will dictate what the muzzel does . a springer will react off the shooter more than anything else . testing various rifles ive clamped them and fired them from a milling machine . just the action fired gives much better feed back and transmission of any nastys towards the barrel. the only movement ive ever come across was not barrel flex but the spring piston barrel lock giving a little on standard break barrels . the hw35 with its latched breake barrel does very well in good condition.
fixed barrels like the tx200 .hw77/97 i havent seen movement at all .

Springer accuracy is actually more down to the shooter and his hold than the rifle

TX200 at 11.5fpe bog standard 177 . 25yds in wind
20230527_224610.webp


I allowed for the barrel flex when shooting at the string 😁😉

Joking apart John there are many schools of thought around what springers do and why .
Thing is no 2 will ever be the same . it does matter what the numbers or the physics say .
thats why i tune everyone of my rifles individually. working only with that rifles components.
Each rifle has its own music . finding the notes is the problem .
 
I certainly agree that the shooter is the key. If I want to improve my FT scores, I'm far better off practicing my shooting (especially offhand) and attending matches than fiddling with muzzle weight! I just thought it was interesting to see a pattern in how my LGU behaves since springers tend to be very inscrutable, and change on you just when you think you've figured things out.

Best wishes,
John
 
Some years ago, two top FT shooters were invited to shoot groups from the FT sitting position in an indoor range, then their rifles' actions were removed from the stocks, and clamped in solid supports, and the resultant groups were larger.

The only explanation I can think of is that the shooters were allowing the actions so move a little, reducing the amplitude of the muzzle vibrations.
 
Back
Top