ven
Member Extraordinaire
Ignore is a wonderful thing 
Happy cycling
Happy cycling
-
the Daily hi thread
Cycling
- Thread starter Reevo17
- Start date
HarrySmithsonian
Member Extraordinaire
Quentyn, you live in that London? The streets of most UK cities are infested with illegal transport from chinese or home made high powered delivery bikes* to cars with ghost mot's and false number plates - and no prize for guessing the demograph of the users.
These things* are a world away from the type of emtb's Ven, myself and our ilk ride on places like Cannock Chase, Llandegla etc. We endure the most overbearing nanny-state laws here whereas our overseas fellow mtb'ers have much more logical and realistic limits on electric assistance. We are only talking about a bit more flexibility here. But I doubt if any of that will make any difference to your views. Getting overtaken by an ebiker while lycra-ed up on your 7kg road bike gets a bit irksome after a while. Lighten up.
These things* are a world away from the type of emtb's Ven, myself and our ilk ride on places like Cannock Chase, Llandegla etc. We endure the most overbearing nanny-state laws here whereas our overseas fellow mtb'ers have much more logical and realistic limits on electric assistance. We are only talking about a bit more flexibility here. But I doubt if any of that will make any difference to your views. Getting overtaken by an ebiker while lycra-ed up on your 7kg road bike gets a bit irksome after a while. Lighten up.
Not really i just find the double standards and the mental gymnastics to justify amazing
Anyway I will leave you to continue to discuss modifying your ebikes - as a reminder here is the law
Pedal Assist: The motor must only assist when you're pedalling.
Power: Max 250W continuous rated power.
Speed: Assistance cuts off at 15.5mph (25 km/h).
Perhaps there needs to be another thread for ebikes / electic motorbikes ?
ven
Member Extraordinaire
Well said, I was about to hand myself in
I can get frustrations for sure, it does me with deliveroo and alike doing 40+ mph on their 5000w motors. Twist grips and don’t pedal at all. Completely different kettle of fish. I’m not pushing illegal stuff to use on roads to go 40mph . Just general post and game changer for me personally. Just cycling discussion and I sure still get my exercise. What I found is I can be out much longer, enjoying the down hill (best bits ) more, as I can ride back up to do again.
General comments
On analog bikes it was a struggle. Im still getting a work out as anyone with an e bike on trails knows, your heart still raises, you still end up red faced. Legs still burn……
As I find about 17/18mph the sweet spot for me on an eMTB trail, it’s annoying with the motor cutting in and out at 16mph(that’s what it reads when I’ve had chance). In some ways it can be a little unsafe, as you’re not watching the speed focusing on a berm. For it to kick in and get a split boost. Just makes it more controllable and less stress on motor with it kicking in and out all the time.
As I’ve said going down hill isn’t an issue, I’m going probably anywhere between 20-30mph unassisted and still will be. My top speed isn’t changing …..
I , as with anyone can get what ever they want to make it assist to much higher level, of which I have no interest in or agree with.
The power on the motor isn’t anywhere near what the gen 5 offers and avinox . Those are up to 1000w , which is weird how it’s worked out. Mine is a 250w motor which can offer briefly put out 600w. Well bellow what many legal bikes can offer, even though the average is suppose to be the same limit of 250w. How that works out im not sure ….(meaning I know the average , but how it can be the same is hard to understand , I think grey areas are being taken advantage of )
As a side note, I find my 85nm more than enough, sometimes too much and can be adjusted down and tweak to the riders preferences. As a 50yr old with knees that have seen better days, I like the option of the 85nm on tap. Someone younger may want 40nm
Best bit is we have that choice and can customise to our preferences or the terrain being ridden on, some bike parks are fast flowing, others could be tech stuff which requires slow calculated manoeuvres.
I know it’s much easier to go past 20mph on a road bike than a heavy fat tired mountain bike. E mountain bikes come into their own, not on straights and descents, but climbs(find more stable on jumps too, due to the extra few kg of weight)
. I’m yet to get much past 12mph on most climbs, in fact majority I do are sub 10mph regardless of any top speed changes. My eMTB is geared for climbs , I’m sure it’s an 11-51t and know it’s 12sp . So I don’t even think down hill off motor , it’s possible to actually pedal past 30mph ,even if I wanted to( I don’t , as I don’t want to fall off at that speed ). I can and do reach those speeds down hill and it can be a little bottom twitchy, especially on loose gravel.
My average speed on a typical trail day seems to be 10-12mph.
Cheers
Captain_Saxa
Member Extraordinaire
I'm going to point something out here, and you can all do with it and apply it to this discission as you please.
Some of you know that I'm the Sales and Operations Director for the UK's biggest independent e-bike specialist.
I'm going to tell you the LAW, vs a very common misconception when it comes to tuning kits (because I've seen it in this thread). You can disagree with it, but it doesn't matter what you think about it. It doesn't change the legislation.
In the UK, there is very clear legislation about e-bikes.
It must not have a "nominal" output over 250W (watts and watt hours are not the same).
It must have pedals as it's primary method of propulsion.
The motor must not provide assistance at speeds over 15.5mph.
Most importantly, that last part, applies EVERYWHERE that isn't "PRIVATE LAND".
Not "off-road", not on mountain bike trails. Not on byways. Not "anywhere the police can't see me".
The law also doesn't care HOW you defeat the factor 15.5mph limit. Tuning kit, wheel size, manufacturer software - it doesn't matter.
The ONLY place it's legal to use a bike which is propelling you above 15.5mph under assistance is your garden, and land YOU own, or any land you have express permission from the landowner to use.
If "OFFROAD" is somewhere the public have access, it's illegal. End of.
I have no idea where this idea of tuning kits/other ways of defeating the limiter is only applicable on road. It's not. You're ridiculous Ng what the law classifies as a motor vehicle.
The consequences are;
Driving otherwise in accordance with a license (if you don't have a motorcycle license, up to £1000 fine, 3-6 points and/or disqual).
No MOT/IVA(SVA)
No Vehicle Excuse Dirty
No Insurance (6-8 points, disqual, unlimited fine)
Riding without a motorcycle rated helmet (up to £500 fine, potentially points)
Using a motor vehicle in a place not permitted (up to £2,500 fine, 3-9 points).
Look at that list and decide that if they lobbed the book at you on even half of it, is it really worth it?
Some of you know that I'm the Sales and Operations Director for the UK's biggest independent e-bike specialist.
I'm going to tell you the LAW, vs a very common misconception when it comes to tuning kits (because I've seen it in this thread). You can disagree with it, but it doesn't matter what you think about it. It doesn't change the legislation.
In the UK, there is very clear legislation about e-bikes.
It must not have a "nominal" output over 250W (watts and watt hours are not the same).
It must have pedals as it's primary method of propulsion.
The motor must not provide assistance at speeds over 15.5mph.
Most importantly, that last part, applies EVERYWHERE that isn't "PRIVATE LAND".
Not "off-road", not on mountain bike trails. Not on byways. Not "anywhere the police can't see me".
The law also doesn't care HOW you defeat the factor 15.5mph limit. Tuning kit, wheel size, manufacturer software - it doesn't matter.
The ONLY place it's legal to use a bike which is propelling you above 15.5mph under assistance is your garden, and land YOU own, or any land you have express permission from the landowner to use.
If "OFFROAD" is somewhere the public have access, it's illegal. End of.
I have no idea where this idea of tuning kits/other ways of defeating the limiter is only applicable on road. It's not. You're ridiculous Ng what the law classifies as a motor vehicle.
The consequences are;
Driving otherwise in accordance with a license (if you don't have a motorcycle license, up to £1000 fine, 3-6 points and/or disqual).
No MOT/IVA(SVA)
No Vehicle Excuse Dirty
No Insurance (6-8 points, disqual, unlimited fine)
Riding without a motorcycle rated helmet (up to £500 fine, potentially points)
Using a motor vehicle in a place not permitted (up to £2,500 fine, 3-9 points).
Look at that list and decide that if they lobbed the book at you on even half of it, is it really worth it?
Last edited:
Captain_Saxa
Member Extraordinaire
You're 100% correct. Bosch will not honour the warranty on a bike found to be running unauthorised software. This includes the non-officially installed region specific OEM coding. It's doesn't matter that it's their own software from another country. They can't be seen to be complicit on assisting people breaking the law.
They know their motors can take it. We've seen OEM data on the Gen 5 CX performing just fine at upto 30mph and 140Nm peak torque. It's just not legal here because to do it, they have to breach the 250W nominal limit.
I built my wheel jig out of MDF and have a very cheap dishing tool. I do have a Chinese spoke tension tool which seems to work well. That's about it. A posher jig would be nice but it wont improve my ability to build wheels, that's just down to experience and learning I think.
ven
Member Extraordinaire
duly noted thanks for info
Those specs are impressive , how do avinox still manage to average (nominal) 250w when they can have bursts of 1000w . I know the boost is limited to 30s but heard this has been increased. Do they just take the average over a longer period of time? Genuinely interested how they still average 250w when everyone knows the DJI motors seem to well outperform the majority. The gen 5 comes close and some prefer the way the motor is set up to DJI units.
No regrets with Bosch , I think the app is excellent , but I’ve limited experience with other manufacturers.
Captain_Saxa
Member Extraordinaire
Because it's based on max nominal continuous output and to achieve that, the human pedaling it also has to be able to put out more than 250W continuous which most people can't actually do.
If you delve into the world of performance (mostly road) cycling, you'll discover a thing called "FTP" or "functional threshold power". It's used to measure the performance of athletes in cycling and can be expressed simply as a total watts figure or w/kg, the number of watts a rider can produce in proportion to their weight. This is an average level of power they can hold solidly for one hour. No deviation.
The average "good" recreational cyclist puts out around 2.0w/kg (untrained is 1-1.5w/kg) The average UK male weight is 85kg, so that's about 170w.
I'm primarily a distance road cyclist, cardiovascular fitness very good, will happy crack out 60-80 mile road rides between breakfast and lunch but much taller/heavier than and average roadie. Currently carrying a few extra winter pounds at 6'3 and 106kg. My short (20 mins) FTP is around 350. Over an hour I drop off to around 300, so about 3w/kg. Bear in mind this is road cycling where hills exist but surface is quite constant. On the turbo on Zwift, my peak burst output (several seconds) is around 1000W.
To bring that back to Earth, Tadej Pogacar has an FTP of around 7w/kg and can hold my 350w max FTP for 4+ hours straight...
So, the reason things like the Avinox are legal is down to two things.
Currently, its impossible to run them at their peak for long enough for the 1000W "peak" to become nominal (which is measured over time at that output) because there isn't a human alive who can do it and secondly, because of current drain.
To run the motor flat out at 1,000 watts takes a lot of current, which creates a lot of heat, and there's only so long a battery can sustain these high loads before they reach their max performance temp limit and will back the power off to preserve the safety of the system.
Even if you stuck your Gen 4 in turbo and pedaled flat out, you would never actually get peak output constantly and it would be a race between what have in first. You legs, out the temp limit on the battery. 90% of the time, the bike will start to back power off, normally after less than a minute or so. Most people just don't notice it because they can't actually produce 600/700W to overtake the motor.
And that's how it's legal...
ven
Member Extraordinaire
Wow thanks for the detailed reply, awesome infoBecause it's based on max nominal continuous output and to achieve that, the human pedaling it also has to be able to put out more than 250W continuous which most people can't actually do.
If you delve into the world of performance (mostly road) cycling, you'll discover a thing called "FTP" or "functional threshold power". It's used to measure the performance of athletes in cycling and can be expressed simply as a total watts figure or w/kg, the number of watts a rider can produce in proportion to their weight. This is an average level of power they can hold solidly for one hour. No deviation.
The average "good" recreational cyclist puts out around 2.0w/kg (untrained is 1-1.5w/kg) The average UK male weight is 85kg, so that's about 170w.
I'm primarily a distance road cyclist, cardiovascular fitness very good, will happy crack out 60-80 mile road rides between breakfast and lunch but much taller/heavier than and average roadie. Currently carrying a few extra winter pounds at 6'3 and 106kg. My short (20 mins) FTP is around 350. Over an hour I drop off to around 300, so about 3w/kg. Bear in mind this is road cycling where hills exist but surface is quite constant. On the turbo on Zwift, my peak burst output (several seconds) is around 1000W.
To bring that back to Earth, Tadej Pogacar has an FTP of around 7w/kg and can hold my 350w max FTP for 4+ hours straight...
So, the reason things like the Avinox are legal is down to two things.
Currently, its impossible to run them at their peak for long enough for the 1000W "peak" to become nominal (which is measured over time at that output) because there isn't a human alive who can do it and secondly, because of current drain.
To run the motor flat out at 1,000 watts takes a lot of current, which creates a lot of heat, and there's only so long a battery can sustain these high loads before they reach their max performance temp limit and will back the power off to preserve the safety of the system.
Even if you stuck your Gen 4 in turbo and pedaled flat out, you would never actually get peak output constantly and it would be a race between what have in first. You legs, out the temp limit on the battery. 90% of the time, the bike will start to back power off, normally after less than a minute or so. Most people just don't notice it because they can't actually produce 600/700W to overtake the motor.
And that's how it's legal...
There is only one long climb for me and it’s around 2-3 miles, but the conditions(loose gravel in the most part) even though it’s not crazy steep and a lot do on analog bikes , average speed is probably around 8- 10mph . Analogs tend to be (ridden by majority that is ) approx 4/5mph . Only rough as of course, a huge variety of riders and bikes . It’s roughly 15-20 mins for me, where as analog riders tend to take 40 mins+ (look a lot more red faced too).
Have you seen the new pinarwllo grevil mx ?
Apparently 8k EUR but won't launch in the UK sadly
That looks fun !
Yeh. I saw some photos. The line between XC and gravel is a blur. Pick your weapon and enjoy. Haters gonna hate.
8k though....... To tasty for me.
Yeah that's where I went wrong, I thought stumping up the extra cash for some gear would make it easier but I soon learnt that wheel building is all about the experience and learning, the lad who used to sort me out was a master at it, he used to do snowflake pattern spoke lacing, they were like a work of art.
Yeh, the tools are pretty simple really.
Ive managed 2 and 3 cross and a radial so far. I've got some Hope Pro5's to build up soon for my gravel bike. I'm looking forward to that. No snow flake patterns though. They're something else!
Last edited:
All lovely looking bikes. I like your single speed. Eccentric BB?
I have an early CAAD, it's a bit of an odd beater. I'll post a pic later.
Is the Mercian set up as a TT bike? (Single ring)
The single speed is on horizontal drop outs so easy to get the chain tension right, the Mercian was built up for time trials, currently in pieces in the garage though awaiting new paint and a rebuild. I’ve been collecting new old stock parts for the last couple of years to get it built up again.
The CAAD is the newest bike I own, pretty much standard apart from the seat and seat post, one day I may put some new wheels on it.
Ah I see now. Makes sense. I have an old 80's Lopro and always wanted a 70's-80's style drop bar TT bike. I may still build something in the future.
I rescued this early CAAD from the scrap heap. The paint was shocking but I never got round to rubbing it down completely and just wanted to ride it. It has a ding in one of the seat stays but not too bad. It has a mix of Ultegra and DA. The wheels are nice. Essentially early Hed/Specialized rebranded for Massi. It's a hoot to ride.
