Second hand shops selling Air guns

You say you’ve not modified a firearm. Then you explain that the rifle in question was a firearm over the 12ftlbs limit classified as “especially dangerous” and therefore a section 1.

The alleged issue here is that a non RFD sold a section 1 firearm to a potentially unlicensed person. This was then modified by yourself to reduce the power however as know once a section 1 always a section 1. Therefore if the rifle in question was illegally sold to your friend as claimed regardless of your modifications had it ever been a section 1 your friend is now in possession of a section 1 firearm lacking the correct paperwork.

It’s worth remembering that this is a strict liability offence. Whilst IANAL I wouldn’t want to go admitting to modifying a potential section 1 personally and would refer the matter and the rifle at your earliest convenience to your FEO.
Can I just say that first of all the guy is not a friend. I repair lots of Airguns for various shops and individuals and yes I know the law. If someone brings me an over powered Air gun I alway check with my firearms department by giving them the serial number to see if it is a registered firearm. In which case if it is I have to see a valid firearms certificate.
 
Question asked and answered.
As far as I know yes . I have spoken to my local firearms department.

You say you’ve not modified a firearm. Then you explain that the rifle in question was a firearm over the 12ftlbs limit classified as “especially dangerous” and therefore a section 1.

The alleged issue here is that a non RFD sold a section 1 firearm to a potentially unlicensed person. This was then modified by yourself to reduce the power however as know once a section 1 always a section 1. Therefore if the rifle in question was illegally sold to your friend as claimed regardless of your modifications had it ever been a section 1 your friend is now in possession of a section 1 firearm lacking the correct paperwork.

It’s worth remembering that this is a strict liability offence. Whilst IANAL I wouldn’t want to go admitting to modifying a potential section 1 personally and would refer the matter and the rifle at your earliest convenience to your FEO.
The thread starter has stated previously that he has spoken to his local firearms department.
 
Can I just say that first of all the guy is not a friend. I repair lots of Airguns for various shops and individuals and yes I know the law. If someone brings me an over powered Air gun I alway check with my firearms department by giving them the serial number to see if it is a registered firearm. In which case if it is I have to see a valid firearms certificate.
So you checked and this was not a section 1 firearm? The reason I ask is in your post you said it was a section 1. Therefore you modified a section 1.

Your story changes quite a bit in this thread. Something doesn’t smell quite right.

So which is it?

- Someone brought you an illegally obtained section 1 firearm which you modified the power output before returning to them.
- Someone brought you a rifle not deemed “especially dangerous” which upon testing was over the limit and you reduced the power and made up the bit about it being a section 1 in your first post.
 
as know once a section 1 always a section 1.

An airgun on a firearms licence can't be made sub-12 once registered as such but are you seriously suggesting every gun that is over the limit that never was on a certificate is never legal again if dialled down to sub 12?

So all the guns none of obviously have never ourselves actually owned that we didn't find to be over the limit and didn't reduce to legal limits or didn't take back to the RFD to obviously not have it adjusted are forever illegal?

Just as well it's never happened to any airgun owner, isn't it?
 
You say you’ve not modified a firearm. Then you explain that the rifle in question was a firearm over the 12ftlbs limit classified as “especially dangerous” and therefore a section 1.

The alleged issue here is that a non RFD sold a section 1 firearm to a potentially unlicensed person. This was then modified by yourself to reduce the power however as know once a section 1 always a section 1. Therefore if the rifle in question was illegally sold to your friend as claimed regardless of your modifications had it ever been a section 1 your friend is now in possession of a section 1 firearm lacking the correct paperwork.

It’s worth remembering that this is a strict liability offence. Whilst IANAL I wouldn’t want to go admitting to modifying a potential section 1 personally and would refer the matter and the rifle at your earliest convenience to your FEO.
Not entirely true unless you can show otherwise . There was a case where a owners rifle was above the limit and the prosecutor and defence agreed it could be turned down . Some airguns can creep up in power . Not sure how it would work with one deliberately put up over the limit though.

An Example . If my HW80 crept over and was doing 13ftlbs and i went to court and used the information below , I dare say i could be left off unless it was proved it was deliberate.

Weapons with a muzzle energy that varies over time.

1.189 The problem is illustrated in R v Puttick.287 P pleaded guilty to possessing a .22 air rifle
(unloaded) without a firearm certificate contrary to section 1 of the Firearms Act 1968.

P told police that he had owned the air rifle for about 20 years. Upon testing, the
highest muzzle energy velocity was 13.7ft/lb, and therefore above the permitted level of
12ft/lb stated in the 1969 Rules (as an air rifle declared to be “specially dangerous”).

However, in mitigation, P adduced an expert’s report that at the time of purchase, the
rifle had been “within the limits” such that no certificate would have been needed for it.

The experts agreed (prosecution and defence) that with ordinary use over time, an air
rifle which was manufactured within the legal limits might creep over the limit without
further modification, “and that appeared to have happened in this case”.

1.190 The section 1 offence is one of strict liability, and thus, on the facts in Puttick, it seems
that a person in possession of an air weapon can creep in and out of the ‘legality zone’
depending on the condition of the gun.288



1.191 P’s counsel informed the Court of Appeal289 that, with expert assistance, the air rifle
could be brought back within the limits laid down by the 1969 Rules. The point is of
interest in that some regard would need to be had (it is submitted) to section 7 of the
Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 that restricts the ‘back conversion’ of specified
firearms.


His case was in 2000 , he claimed the rifle was 20 years old so I would assume it was a leather sealed springer and it was possibly dieseling when tested.

For all we know the old owner of the PCP may have been maintaining and had no idea what they were doing and no Chrono and then sold it on not knowing it was over . Some will say that wont happen but most people know it can happen and some have even bought them brand new over the limit , so do they all go back to the RFD and then get put on the FAC register ? I don’t think so as people have taken them back and had them adjusted to sub12 .
 
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So you checked and this was not a section 1 firearm? The reason I ask is in your post you said it was a section 1. Therefore you modified a section 1.

Your story changes quite a bit in this thread. Something doesn’t smell quite right.

So which is it?

- Someone brought you an illegally obtained section 1 firearm which you modified the power output before returning to them.
- Someone brought you a rifle not deemed “especially dangerous” which upon testing was over the limit and you reduced the power and made up the bit about it being a section 1 in your first post.
An air rifle with power running over 12fpe is still a firearm registered or not.
 
From a buyers perspective, If you know what your looking at and find an absolute bargain in a second hand shop and your handy with air rifles, I don't see how you're any worse off than buying a private sale on Guntrader. Some people have even bought stuff from RFD'S that were over and allegedly they were not even interested when told.

If there's a big enough margin in the value, then why not. Take it home, test it and carry out any necessary work, it's not our job to ensure that the second hand shop abides by the law, we just have to worry about ourselves and what we do.
 
An airgun on a firearms licence can't be made sub-12 once registered as such but are you seriously suggesting every gun that is over the limit that never was on a certificate is never legal again if dialled down to sub 12?

So all the guns none of obviously have never ourselves actually owned that we didn't find to be over the limit and didn't reduce to legal limits or didn't take back to the RFD to obviously not have it adjusted are forever illegal?

Just as well it's never happened to any airgun owner, isn't it?
In the first post they state it is a section 1. That’s the confusion. They claim in later posts they have experience with servicing air rifles and if they are over 12 they check with licensing to see if it’s a section 1. This reinforces the claim in the original post it is a section 1. They admit to modifying the rifle in the post.

So far in the thread OP has done the following:

- Declared it an S1
- Admitted modifying the S1
- Claimed to check if a rifle is an S1 which re-enforces their claim it is an S1
- Denied modifying an S1

I’m only trying to get the straight story here.

Not defending anyone who is not an RFD selling firearms of any sort. I’m asking OP to explain how their original claim of it being S1 which they claim to check routinely is no longer the case when asked if they modified an S1.

The possible explanations I can come up with are:

- Not an S1. OP made that bit up for effect. Just a regular air rifle running hot which they fixed.
- OP modified an S1 after their routine verification with licensing.
 
couple of issues here, as I see it
Firstly anyone selling air weapons by way of trade / business needs to be an RFD

Secondly, if the rifle in question has been confirmed not to be a registered S1 air rifle, it's one that has been modified and is illegal without an FAC. That could apply to any rifle over the sub12 limit.

De tuning a registered S1 is not a problem as long as its held on an fac by the owner. It doesn't have to be above sub12 to be held on an FAC
The sensible route, if not a registered S1, and over, is to make it sub12 and smartish
The only caveat here, is whether the person carrying out the de tuning, has the authority to possess a rife above sub12. Anyone getting caught in possession of a rifle above sub12, is liable to prosecution, unless they are acting on behalf of an RFD as a servant, or an RFD themselves
 
couple of issues here, as I see it
Firstly anyone selling air weapons by way of trade / business needs to be an RFD

Secondly, if the rifle in question has been confirmed not to be a registered S1 air rifle, it's one that has been modified and is illegal without an FAC. That could apply to any rifle over the sub12 limit.
The sensible route, if not a registered S1 is to make it sub12 and smartish
The only caveat here, is whether the person carrying out the de tuning, has the authority to possess a rife above sub12. Anyone getting caught in possession of a rifle above sub12, is liable to prosecution, unless they are acting on behalf of an RFD as a servant, or an RFD themselves
Beat me too it Rob 👍
 
couple of issues here, as I see it
Firstly anyone selling air weapons by way of trade / business needs to be an RFD

Secondly, if the rifle in question has been confirmed not to be a registered S1 air rifle, it's one that has been modified and is illegal without an FAC. That could apply to any rifle over the sub12 limit.
The sensible route, if not a registered S1 is to make it sub12 and smartish
The only caveat here, is whether the person carrying out the de tuning, has the authority to possess a rife above sub12. Anyone getting caught in possession of a rifle above sub12, is liable to prosecution, unless they are acting on behalf of an RFD as a servant, or an RFD themselves
The issue with the story here is that OP states in their post it is S1. Once they say it is S1 we follow the rule of once an S1 always an S1.
 
All air rifles are actually firearms in legal terms. The distinction is over 12 fpe they require a firearms certificate to be legally owned.
I think the point that he's trying to make is that an FAC airgun will always require the appropriate license regardless of whether or not it now only produces sub12 muzzle energy.
Thank you absolutely correct.
 
I think the point that he's trying to make is that an FAC airgun will always require the appropriate license regardless of whether or not it now only produces sub12 muzzle energy.
This is it! I didn’t make it an S1 requiring an FAC. The very start of this thread did that with OP being the one to state this. They even double down later stating they check with licensing.
 
Beat me too it Rob 👍
Hi
I'm a servant for my local and on his ticket as such
The only work I do, is for him and under that authority. I don't do any private jobs at all

It's still a very grey area, whether anyone working on air rifles, should be an RFD or not. Though I wouldn't want to be the one to test that.
I choose the safe option
 
The issue with the story here is that OP states in their post it is S1. Once they say it is S1 we follow the rule of once an S1 always an S1.

It's a point of semantics there. He has used the term S1 to describe the power output. He at no point says it is a registered S1 Firearm. Merely it is a firearm in the form of an air gun that on testing proved to be within the requirements of needing an S1 Firearm certificate to be owned and used legally unaltered from its existing form.
 
This is it! I didn’t make it an S1 requiring an FAC. The very start of this thread did that with OP being the one to state this. They even double down later stating they check with licensing.
Though the OP said it was S1, I think that's just bad language.
If checked and confirmed not to be a registered S1 its just an over the limit air rifle

Only when registered as an S1 can it not go back to sub12, in theory, but I know for a fact that some licensing authorities have allowed that in the past, but maybe no longer possible
 
It's a point of semantics there. He has used the term S1 to describe the power output. He at no point says it is a registered S1 Firearm. Merely it is a firearm in the form of an air gun that on testing proved to be within the requirements of needing an S1 Firearm certificate to be owned and used legally unaltered from its existing form.
“So not only did they sell him a Section 1 firearm...”

They claim it to be an S1.

“If someone brings me an over powered Air gun I alway check with my firearms department by giving them the serial number to see if it is a registered firearm.”

They then go on to claim they check this.

These statements are either completely false or OP modified an S1 which they deny. Which one is it?
 
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